Women’s Day Special: Pallavi Shroff, Dina Wadia, Vineetha MG, Indu Malhotra and Pratibha Singh on Women and the Legal profession

Bar & Bench speaks with Amarchand Mangaldas Senior Partner Pallavi Shroff, JSA Senior Partner Dina Wadia and Samvad Partners’ Vineetha MG, Senior Advocates Indu Malhotra and Pratibha Singh on changes in the legal profession..In a freewheeling conversation, these senior lawyers share their thoughts on the changes in the general attitude towards women, the evolution of women lawyers, the particular challenges that women face and much more..The Indian Legal profession: Different for men and women?.Pallavi Shroff, who has been in the profession for 30 years, says that in today’s world the legal profession is no different for men and women, a sentiment that is echoed by J. Sagar Associates Senior Partner, Dina Wadia..“Over the years what I have seen is that clients and firms are as accepting of women as they are of men”, says Pallavi, “though when I joined the profession it wasn’t the same.”.“I can tell you a lot has changed from a situation where the court did not take women very seriously and thought that women were coming just to take an adjournment and wait for their seniors to argue,” says Pallavi, who has been litigating right from the start of her career. “Women are accepted in the Court today and with a number of them being designated as Senior Advocates, we have come a long way.”.Dina Wadia though, thinks that women are less inclined to join the Bar and prefer joining a firm. This may be because courtrooms continue to be dominated by men while women feel more at par with their male colleagues in firms..In contrast, Vineetha MG has seen no noticeable differences between men and women lawyers. Last year, the former AZB Partner set up her own law firm before merging it with NDR to form Samvad Partners. “Of course time management may be an issue for women with children and families to take care of – but my female colleagues seem to manage that well.”.According to Vineetha, the only possible difference could be that, in some rare instances, male clients are a bit self-conscious when dealing with a woman. With time though, this reduces since at the end of the day, it is the quality of legal services provided that is important..Senior Advocate Pratibha Singh disagrees, albeit only partly. It is a well-known fact that the legal profession is traditionally a male dominated profession, she says, especially litigation. “This is because of the. huge time commitment that litigation entails. A litigation lawyer requires to work at least 12-14 hours a day which women find difficult due to family commitments.”.Indu Malhotra, one of the first women to be designated a Senior Advocate by the Supreme Court, feels there isn’t any explicit discrimination as such; she does admit that the legal profession is tough. “It requires complete dedication of your time, you have to work very long hours and you have to perform. It was a tough struggle where one grew brief-by-brief. It was not that anything was readymade or served on a platter, it took time.”.Attitude towards women in early years.Talking about her early years, Pallavi says, “When I started, the clients would say, ‘We will wait for Shardul Shroff, we want to meet him as he will handle our case’. Even though I was actually handling their cases!”.Most clients preferred to wait for her husband rather than discuss the case with her even though Shardul would clearly tell them that the case had been assigned to her. With time though, things changed. “Gradually when clients see that you can handle their cases, you can deliver then they slowly start accepting you.”.Dina, a Banking & Finance law specialist, shares similar thoughts. “When I started in the 1980’s, it was felt that women would not be serious about law as a career; that they would practice for a few years and then leave when they get married.”.“In fact one of my seniors used to joke, ‘Why are you depriving some poor boy of a job?’”, she recounts..Pratibha though considers herself very lucky starting her practice in a cosmopolitan city like Delhi but says there were times when, “Women were not taken seriously but were only considered good for taking pass-overs and adjournments. However, one can change that perception. If a woman is well prepared and is able to present her case effectively, Judges do take notice and give recognition.”.Indu Malhotra agrees that there is a certain element of gender bias but only when it comes to becoming a senior counsel. She says, “The corporates and the clients would normally prefer a male senior to a woman senior, so there is discrimination at that level.”.But like Pratibha Singh, Indu also feels that as long as a lawyer argues and acts in a sensible manner, judges take you seriously. “It depends on how you present yourself – whether it is then or now,” says Indu, “If you talk seriously and with focus, they will certainly accept you with the same kind of seriousness. ”.Vineetha, who joined the profession relatively recent, says that she belongs to a generation where women were on the top or already highly placed in the legal profession. “Most of my mentors / bosses have been women and in fact have been super achievers. So I have always worked in a very conducive environment for women.”.The challenge to make a mark.All five of them agree that the principle challenge was being accepted as a serious player by judges, colleagues and clients..Pallavi says, “I used to be in the court every morning, irrespective of what was happens. When you are there in court everyday and arguing your own cases, that is when people’s attitude changes. Every time I faced resistance in court, it would make me more determined that ‘No, I am not going to accept this.’”.She also remembers certain judges who encouraged her to argue. Pallavi says, “The faith and the confidence the judge puts in you gives a lot of encouragement but it means that you have to constantly be there, you cannot make an excuse that ‘My child is unwell’ or something like that. That is an excuse you cannot give. It also means a lot of sacrifice, for years I didn’t take a break. I worked every single day.”.Dina feels, “One had to work much harder and be a bit more assertive to make the point that you were serious about your career so that your seniors invested in you and saw you as a long-term prospect.”.Interestingly, Indu points out another major challenge that women face – procuring work. “Work does not come to your door, you have to go out and get work. And I feel as far as public relations is concerned that is one area where single women find it very difficult to go and get work from corporations and other areas.”.She says that one of the more sought after clients are government corporations, which usually provide a continuous flow of work. Unfortunately, this work often comes through political connections alone. “Also law officers’ jobs come with political connections and that is where women feel disadvantaged because if you don’t have political connections you don’t get those offices”, says Indu..Pratibha too feels that women have a disadvantage as far as networking is concerned because men are more adept and they can go out to get work..Work-Life Balance.“I think the biggest challenge women face is management between family and work,” says Pallavi, “It is a very demanding profession and all said and done, in India, unless the family supports you, it is very difficult. I was very lucky that I had my full family support. My mother in law was my rock, and so was my husband. They gave me the space, they gave me the encouragement.”.The constant struggle to balance one’s work and personal life can prove to be extremely difficult..For Vineetha, the struggle has been one of “Having”, as she says, “So little time and so much to do!.Sometimes the struggle is to strike a balance between work and other aspects of life. I have been working harder on that. But there is no substitute for hard work!”.Pratibha too discerns the biggest challenge to be the balance of work and family life. She says, “I had to work harder than most of my male colleagues. My typical day would start at around 5.30am in the morning and end at about 11pm in the night, without a single break.”.As was the case with Pallavi, Pratibha too had the advantage of a supportive husband in Maninder and familial support in the form of a joint family. Another advantage was that her office and home was at the same place..“I used to teach my kids till they were in seventh standard and they used to do their homework in my office room. All my clients have seen our kids grow. The kids knew I was always around if they needed me” adds Pratibha..Low percentage of women partners in Indian law firms.Even though the institutions which serve as feeders for most law firms, the law schools have an equal ratio of men and women (with women sometimes outnumbering men), as one goes up the ladder the number. of women starts dropping..Pallavi says, “A lot of women unfortunately have to drop out because beyond a point they will not get the family support, especially when they have children. There is a constant dilemma of children being at home and you at workplace, which is a big dilemma and if you don’t have the family support its excruciatingly difficult, so a lot of women mid way fall away.”.But Dina feels that this is changing along with social attitudes. “I think we are now seeing more women stay in the profession and cross that crucial 8-10 year hurdle to make Partner. It’s just a matter of time before we will see the percentage rising. At JSA a good proportion of our junior Partners are women.”.Samvad has just made two new women partners and the majority of partners in Samvad are women. Vineetha says, “Interestingly this has always been the case with all organizations that I have worked with.”.Institutional Support for women lawyers.Although a relatively recent phenomenon, law firms have started adopting flexible or part-time working arrangements for their employees. When asked on the support the firm provides to its women lawyers, Shroff says, “We support women lawyers in a very big way. We will not discriminate against women in employment or in promotion. We treat them as equals and we have equally exacting standards both for men and women.”.“We do have a creche for children of employees, which is open from 9.30am to 7.00pm and a flexi-time option for those who need it.” But Shroff is quick to add, “Work should not suffer, that is the bottom line. Work or quality will not be compromised.”.Dina also says that her firm does not discriminate between women and men. “Parameters for advancement in JSA is merit based and applicable to all.” However, they do have programs like flexi-time or sabbaticals to encourage women lawyers to continue in the profession..As part of a newer and smaller law firm, Vineetha says that flexible working hours are much easier to introduce. “As Partners we want a conducive environment for all our lawyers. Given we are still a small firm, we are fortunate to be able to achieve that and provide each of our lawyers the flexibility they need in their environment to perform to their best levels”, says Vineetha..Sexual Harassment at the workplace.All three firms, JSA, Amarchand and Samvad, have a policy in place and have set up an Internal Complaint Committee. Shroff says the firm has set up an Internal complaints committee last month and was preceded by a round of internal training. At Amarchand, any employee can post a complaint via e-mail..JSA has had such a policy and grievance mechanism for many years. However, with the recent notification, the firm has updated their policy to bring it in line with the new law and have also set up an Internal Complaints Committee..Vineetha too confirms that the associates have been made familiar with the framework and the firm has set up the Internal Complaints Committee..Sexual Harassment and litigating lawyers.Recently, two Supreme Court judges were accused of sexually harassing their interns, resulting in much public debate about sexual harassment in the legal profession. One of the more unfortunate consequences has been that judges, senior counsels have become slightly skeptical in taking women lawyers as juniors. In fact some senior lawyers have publicly stated that they would prefer not to have female juniors..Does this make it more difficult for women lawyers?.Pratibha says, “I, for one, was opposed to the manner in which this entire episode spanned out. If women have an issue with a Judge or a senior lawyer, we should know how to deal with it. Without taking any names I would like to state that if a judge passes a bad comment in the Court against a woman lawyer the manner to deal with this is to report it immediately to the correct quarters. One cannot procrastinate on these issues. Without blaming either side I feel that such situations have to be dealt with in a much more mature manner.”.Pratibha is aware of several Senior Advocates who are hesitant in recruiting women juniors. For her, this is a completely incorrect approach “Such knee-jerk reactions are unwanted and are bad for the system. Everyone has to behave in a dignified and mature manner.”.The changing perception of women over the years.Pallavi, who represents some of biggest business houses in the country says, “Today women are being recognized as being as good as men. That is the biggest evolution I have seen.”.In today’s environment, reasons Pallavi, clients are more driven by professionalism, “If you are good they will accept you, if you are not good irrespective of who you are, you will be thrown out.”.Of course, success does not come easily. Says Pallavi, “It takes a lot of sacrifices. So among other things, Shardul and I didn’t have a social life because we were committed to work and we were committed to our. children.”.It appears that things are changing for the better. The number of women joining the profession is increasing, with a far wider scope of work than ever before. According to Dina, “The rise in the number of firms has also improved women’s career prospects.”.“There are also a number of successful female lawyers today who have reached where they are on merit and that, I feel, that has sent the message that you can succeed in this profession”, says Dina..Pratibha sees a complete evolution in the status of women in the profession, especially in litigation. She notes, “If one comes to the lobby of any of the District Courts or High Court the evolution of women becomes obvious. We now have 8-9 women judges in our High Court who are considered equally good..Women are heading law firms and are also venturing into tougher branches of law like criminal law. I feel that it would just be a few more years before women are equally represented in the profession.”.Indu shares this optimism when she says, “There are many more avenues of employment for women and today law is considered to be one of the most lucrative professions. In fact there are lot of offices which prefer to take women because they think women are more steady and hard working.”.However, Pratibha does add a note of caution for women when she says, “Women should never expect sympathy from male counterparts. That becomes counter productive in the long run. Women must know how to organize their personal life without letting it interfere with their work.”.Image Source: Tribune.com