There was greater mutual respect between Bar and Bench earlier, today there is mutual aversion: CJI Venkatachaliah at LRT hosted by AZB

The 100th lawyers' roundtable at the Oberoi Hotel, witnessed a conversation between former Chief Justice of India MN Venkatachaliah and Aditya Vikram Bhat, Senior Partner, AZB & Partners and Mysore Prasanna.In a candid conversation, former CJI Venkatachaliah shares interesting anecdotes from his journey in the legal profession..Edited excerpts from the conversation follow:.Aditya Vikram Bhat (AVB): What were the factors that contributed to Venkatachaliah joining the legal profession?.CJI Venkatachaliah : I seem to have had no option at all - my grandfather was a judge and I still have his library... and an enormously enriching atmosphere. My father taught philosophy in Maharaj College earlier ... he was then asked to go to the West and train himself as a Professor. The Vice Chancellor wrote to his father seeking his permission to travel abroad since in those days it involved considerable braving of social opposition, (and that beautiful letter was published by the postal department in Delhi in one of their exhibitions)... promptly my grandfather refused, and the VC told him he had no future in the academic and he must go back...he was then married into my maternal grandfather's family who was a judge and he pushed him to the Madras Law College where he studied... and as destiny would have it he came back to academics and became the first Principal of the Government Law College in Bangalore... so.. the journey has been an interesting one..Mysore Prasanna (MP) - How did your journey start, under whom, and what was your learning curve like? .When you witness a good lawyer argue a well-prepared brief before a good judge - that is legal education.Former CJI MN Venkatachaliah.CJI: My first teacher and idol was my own father. He spoke English so beautifully...His destiny was in philosophy, but he became a lawyer by compulsion. His career also ended in the way he must have desired - as an academician. Those days law didn't have this kind of variety and dazzle... it was a very narrow field. Law schools even in England never taught law in the strict sense...I have seen the Inns of Courts.... At the Indo-British Legal Forum, they teach the fundamentals of legal maxims, and the Inns of Courts take it further. Legal education was not very academic. Even as lately as 10 years ago, a man with a degree in agriculture could become a Solicitor after 2 years of conversion course... this is how non-academic the atmosphere of legal education was. But the real learning started in the Chambers of the Senior... the junior who watches the conversation between a Senior lawyer, client and the instructing Counsel - enriches his storehouse of legal knowledge. When you witness a good lawyer argue a well-prepared brief before a good judge - that is legal education. .In fact, I tell many Seniors to send their juniors to court and read the brief earlier and watch the arguments and write a shadow judgement themselves, so they can compare it with the judgements pronounced later - nobody takes this exercise seriously. It is a very serious business, and we aren't attaching much importance to the academic side of law. Twilight will become darkness if something is prepared last minute, and judges gulp it down - this is not the way the law is developed - the legal system will become irrelevant... Unfortunately, the legal system is in a rut (I won't say gutter), and it's difficult to come out... Nani Palkhiwala used to say the Indian Supreme Court would need 300 years to clean the mess....Judgement-writing is serious business, and we aren't attaching much importance to the academic side of law.Former CJI MN Venkatachaliah.AVB: There is a view that in era of using paper, pen and books the retention span and learning was better that now when we use digital resources and technology - what is your view and guidance for us on this?.CJI: I agree on this. In the era of technology, you garbage in and garbage out. But in the study of Sanskrit in traditional schools, it was about internalizing the information. What you hear from one ear and let out for the other, is possible in some cases, but it doesn't civilize the inner man - that is the difference between technology and knowledge. Technology has its benefits in speed and effectiveness; but there is a difference between information and knowledge and wisdom. Information technology is not a civilizing influencing, but an anti-civilizing influence. It is not dehumanizing or demonizing - but it eliminates participation of human element - that itself is a civilization issue....MP: When you were a judge at the Karnataka High Court, the relation between the Bar and the Bench was somewhat different than it is today - Can you share some interesting episodes from your time?.CJI: There was greater mutual respect, today, there is mutual aversion - one is a critic of the other. There is also a personality issue. Those days, there was a genuine regard for seniors who argued their briefs. I had seen some lawyers mesmerized. I recollect a lawyer who practiced on the criminal side who came to argue a criminal appeal in the High Court - my father asked me to watch him - it was a treat! Today, you have knowledge of law and the rules. They had studied the beautiful classics of that time - they read Shakespeare, Kalidasa, etc - and that expressed itself unconsciously in the process of delivery of their diction. I still remember when they were referring to the sentence (part of the judgement under appeal). He said that the sentence was 'savage', and it was said in a manner which had a great effect on the mind of the judge, that is the kind of difference... .Back in the day, there was greater mutual respect (between the Bar and the Bench), today, there is mutual aversion - one is a critic of the other.Former CJI MN Venkatachaliah.Reminiscing some recommended readings to the audience and specially youngsters, CJI Venkatachaliah said, "I recollect an article written by an American top corporate lawyer in a Solicitors journal - 'Gentlemen their Lordships' - that's how the judges in the House of Lords were ushered into the courtroom. He said 'a hundred pages of neatly type-written brief is not equivalent to one meaningful set of shoulders in the Queen's Council in the Court'... It compliments the British system so beautifully... there is another article in the Law Quarterly Review 'Hearing of appeals in England and America' which pays great tribute to the English Appellate Barristers... youngsters should familiarize themselves with the technique of the court craft." .MP: You emphasize on reading, how important is this habit in the profession?.CJI: Of course! The tools of the trade of a lawyer are not the judgements. It’s his own culture, the width, the range of his own maturity... you can see the wealth of his inner wisdom… the mass of inner wisdom exuding like an aura. You could see the personality of the lawyer unfolding in the court also. I don't know how to express my sense of concern about the superficiality of the acquaintance with the fundamental principles of a profession. It is not merely the knowledge of case law, but the beauty of the language. If you see YV Chandrachud’s judgements, (even DY Chandrachud), the felicity of expression... How amazing how they state the constitutional doctrine and method and philosophy through the most perilous periods of time in Indian history. People don't understand, the House of Lords decides 60 cases a year, the American Supreme Court decides 130 cases a year, the Indian Supreme Court listens to 1000 cases every week!... You can’t imagine the magnitude, the bulk that they carry. It’s not an easy thing.The tools of the trade of a lawyer are not the judgements. It’s his own culture, the width, the range of his own maturity...Former CJI MN Venkatachaliah.AVB: What corrective measures in your view need to be put in place both on the Bench and the Bar, for the future of the legal profession?.CJI: I’ll tell you about the future of the courts. In my capacity as Chief Justice, the Chancellor of the Law School University, Bangalore, we conferred a doctorate on the Lord Chancellor. Michael Kirby was present on that occasion. There was an interesting conversation. The Chancellor asked Michael Kirby, “What do you think of the future of the courts?" Kirby’s answer was, “I’m so glad that the Lord Chancellor thinks there is a future at all." (all laugh).AVB: What course correction can be adopted?.CJI: I somehow feel very pessimistic about the attitude the lawyers and judges have towards the problem. If you don't know the problem, you don't know the solution. The problem is the lawyer and the judges themselves. At least 70% of the work of the courts is not judicial, it’s administrative work. You're quite inept at handling administration. If you don't have systems' men to handle that, you will just say a matrimonial case must be ideally over in 4-6 months… you prescribe it (the timeline) and give it to systems' men, they'll plan it for you... I thought about this issue very intensely and passionately and gave a full-fledged idea of how a typical pilot project could be done in a district and test the veracity of this method. Nobody is prepared to do that....Increasing Diversity by Increasing Access to Legal Education (IDIA) is a non-profit organization working in India that aims to empower underprivileged and marginalised children by giving them access to quality legal education.