COVID-19 crisis: “Don’t want to make it Delhi centric, looking at it from everyone's point of view:” Supreme Court [LIVE UPDATES]

The Centre will today place its plan of action detailing how the 700 MT of oxygen as ordered by the Supreme Court would be supplied to Delhi. The Supreme Court bench led by Justice Chandrachud has sought details about the supply chain and logistical preparations needed..The case has its genesis in the Centre moving Supreme Court against a Delhi High Court contempt notice issued for not supplying 700 MT oxygen to Delhi. The Supreme Court yesterday stayed the contempt notice but did not budge from its earlier direction to supply 700 MT oxygen to Delhi..Live updates from the hearing feature here. .Solicitor General Mehta: All the major hospitals that use LMO is included in the survey. significant stocks available with hospital is there. large quantities which reached Delhi yesterday has not been distributed.SG: Unloading is taking too long from Delhi. tankers need to be unloaded so that they can go back to eastern corridor to replenish the stock. two oxygen express trains is reaching Delhi today. other two trains with 63 MT is also coming. 126 MT in ISO container from Durgapur too.SG: in case we continue to supply Delhi beyond rationale it will deprive other states of equitable distribution. expression of 700 MT oxygen demand is not correct one..SG: To achieve 700 allotment for other states has been interfered with. any deficiency in other states may lead to adverse consequences beyond the control of Centre.Officer from the Centre's Oxygen supply department Sumita Dawra appears Justice Chandrachud: I hope you have recovered Dawra: Recovered sir. We have other pressures.. a lot...Dawra: 490 MT was the previous allocation. 460 MT is accounted from ongoing supplies. another 30 is from Kalinganagar. we are adding another 40 MT now. special allocation fo 100 MT is being made from Reliance industries Jamnagar plant.Dawra: RIL supply will continue as of now. In conclusion A part shows existing allocation of 460 MT, 140 MT will be operationalised from May 9. There is an overall pressure on container availability. pressure also on international market. then there is special allocation from RIL.Dawra: Then the cycle begins as there is a turnaround time for the containers and so begins again on May 14. Delhi has 58 percent storage in cryogenic vessels. the survey has been updated as on 10 am. total cryogenic tanks that could be filled has been done.Dawra: It includes all important hospitals like Ganga ram etc. Linde company is also deploying ISO containers and another 6 is being deployed. So it will be 18 and in next 5 days another 6 will be added taking it to 24. We need more for Kalinganagar side..Dawra: Our plan is dynamic and ongoing. the entire plan is very much dependent on the sufficient number of containers. If we see decreasing number of cases in some states then those states can release the tankers.Justice Shah: decrease is less and increase is more. Like karnataka is increasing Dawra: In Delhi growth rate has decreased for example. the turnaround time for the tankers is also important; there are decanting issues too with containers.Dawra: Airports have already conducted 31 sorties and such interventions are being made Justice Chandrachud: yesterday you delivered 738 MT of oxygen to Delhi, today it will be 640 and then again it reaches 700 and then comes down to 560. Now hospital storage capacity id 478 mt.Justice Chandrachud: Today storage capacity must be empty? what is the total storage that is availed of as of now? Dawra: storage shown here is of 56 hospitals which is 478 MT. Linde has a tank for storage in Faridabad but is of the supplier.Justice Shah: we want to know in the storage what is the empty one. SG: This is an ongoing capacity 478 is not always full or emptyJustice Chandrachud: after two day lag it will be 560 MT.Justice Chandrachud: Is there a buffer stock?Justice Shah: All hospitals are sending SOS to nodal officer saying they have only a few hours of oxygen left. We had passed an order that buffer stock be maintained by MAY 3 Midnight.Dawra: These cryogenic tankers are in hospitals and stocks are depleting fast due to increasing cases. about 58 percent was full yesterday at about 8.45 pm SG: It can be plus or minus after two hours.Dawra: After 478 MT, total 300 is being utilised you have raised a very important point. can the storage hold a buffer when there is surplus coming to delhi these are the tanks which needs to be filled by buffer.Justice Chandrachud: The great panic in the city of few hours of oxygen will be taken care of SG: Except major hospitals most of these hospitals were not covid hospitals with 20 to 30 beds Justice Chandrachud: But there requirement has to be met.SG: So these hospitals did not have tanks and thus keep cylinders. so the capacity to hold oxygen in cylinder is 12 hours. that is why the hours SOS is being raised Justice Shah: This demand is by big hospitals also like Ganga Ram etc. that is why panic is there in minds.Justice Chandrachud: A very senior doctor lost his life due to oxygen shortage SG: Let the supply reach Delhi and let a responsible officer from Delhi explain this. Adv Rahul Mehra wishes to speak...SG: Either there is lacuna in our supply then it has to e looked into there is a possibility of lacuna on part of state or party centre in distributing the supplied oxygen. therefore oxygen audit is must.SG: I will be answerable to those states whose 300 MT I have taken for Delhi and what if audit reveals Delhi needed only 400 MT. Then what?.Justice Chandrachud: your formula needs a relook. when you prepared the formula not everybody who went to ICU needed oxygen. But now many home isolation patients need oxygen. your formula does not take into account ambulances, covid care facility etc..Justice Chandrachud: The formula is a gross underestimate for Delhi. there is a judicial order in karnataka, we need to look at this pan India basis. we need to do an oxygen audit and what is the accountability when stocks are redistributed. we are not today in stage 1 of pandemic.Justice Chandrachud: We may enter stage 3 and if we prepare today we may be able to handle it. Whatever stocks procured needs to be sent to hospitals. its not about allocating it to state but also the logistics to see that it is distributed to hospitals.Justice Chandrachud: What is the problem in enhancing the supply. if its not required it can be stored. but then it can be said that there is no need for oxygen panic. this will be a buffer for Delhi.Justice Shah: major part of India is rural area. equal distribution to rural areas is important. what about that? where most people are suffering. we have to consider future requirements too. what about a third wave?.SG: Highest country is sharing its concern with us and its a dialogue and I take it that spirit Justice Chandrachud: The third surge in India which is around the corner according to experts will affect children. so when a child goes to covid hospital a mother and father will go.Justice Chandrachud: That is why vaccination will have to be over for this group of people. We need to plan for this in a scientific way and thus make arrangement Justice Shah: Our idea is to only elicit suggestion.SG Mehta: So far as formula is concerned nothing is static. We are dealing with pandemic Justice Chandrachud: Arrey woh sab theek hai but when will it become dynamic?? We got it its not static. Your committee did not look at obvious points, we as judges see it.SG: We must have a solution thereby to have a minimum fault prone formula, we are not saying that formula is cast in stone. once you have said it the point is under examination including participating several persons. we will revisit the formula.SG: We have a particular quantity of the resource and we will be augmenting. process of augmentation is on. as on today we have a quantity which needs to be rationally allocated.SG: Suppose 15 tankers are available, all empty tankers come via oxygen express and distributed to all states. Justice Shah spoke of rural areas. when allocation takes place it takes care of rural requirement also..SG: For an emergency in a remote village and there are 500 patients and suppose its not possible for transporting the tankers, there are trains with covid compartments and that train can go to the village.SG: States have to have their own internal system of oxygen distribution. we are not concerned with only major cities and towns. just because someone is less troublesome is not like they wont get the benefit.Justice Chandrachud: Today India has access to technology. this was a experiment done in Maharashtra. a task force of 11-12 doctors was formed where they communicated with the most rural hospitals. its not off the cuff..Justice Chandrachud: Input what I received was intensive unit is not always needed by the bedside. the entire guidance can be provided online. what can BE PROVIDED IS AN ELECTRONIC ICU. there is no way today that we have health professionals to face second or third surge.Justice Chandrachud: Today we have 1.5 lakh doctors who have finished medical course but waiting for NEET exam. How do you tap them? SG: Grace marks for PG? Justice Chandrachud: Yes, 1.5 lakh doctors and 2.5 lakh nurses are sitting at home they will be crucial for 3rd wave.Justice Chandrachud: Current crop of doctors are completely fatigued and is at the end of their tether. you can call them corona warriors etc but they are humans. When we direct the formation of an audit committee te idea is not that you didn't think of it..Justice Chandrachud: Just that we contribute as judges. Now you say 700 mt will be provided only on Monday and subject to availability of tankers so what is there from today and monday.SG: Regarding tapping the human resources. So something has happened in this regard. So we will take an update from health ministry and inform you..Justice Chandrachud: What happens from today and Monday. Mr Mehta you have to augment the supply. You have to keep holding operation. "Saatso toh aapko dena hi padega." Once we complete the exercise and Delhi demand is rationalised but as of now we all are in the dark.Justice Chandrachud: It cant be 560 MT till Monday, like you made it 730 MT by today. You have to maintain it. Justice Shah: Everyday we see what is happening SG: It is not because of me or supply.Justice Chandrachud: We know people die and we understand everybody who dies are not dying due to lack of oxygen. But can it be denied that oxygen is not a critical component. SG: We have diverted supply from other states Justice Shah: You can't take someone else's bread.SG: I am making this statement that if we have to supply 700 MT then I have to take someone else's share. If there is an adverse consequence then we can't be held responsible because of some one else's incompetence. . I don't want to escalate this..Justice Shah: Some doctors are performing non medical responsibilities. They can also be tapped. Justice Chandrachud: When Mr Mehra is arguing tell us who would you like to be in the audit committee.SG: Dr Gulleria is leading the COVID fight. Justice Shah: What is the modality to see how the public money is being accounted for? Justice Chandrachud: How do you ensure this stock is not black marketed SG: This will come in the audit report.Justice Chandrachud to Ms Dawra: Suppose you deliver X quantity to delhi, what is the responsibility to look at the distribution? SG: That is states responsibility.Justice Chandrachud: As a chairman of e-committee we receive funds from Finance Ministry and then send to High Courts and we need to ensure it meets the end use. What are you doing at your end? Dawra: As the system works allotment is made to states..Dawra: Product is picked up by Inox, Linday etc from the factory gates. There was a crisis in Nagpur. Inox said it will pick up the stock from Bhillai. Maharashtra govt stood up and bore the transportation cost and that's how the oxygen demand was met..Dawra: UP has put GPS trackers in Oxygen tankers. In Greater Mumbai they maintain google sheet to maintain real time location of such oxygen tankers..Dawra: When cryogenic tankers run dry then cylinders are brought in. I got a call from a big hospital for two jumbo cylinders for ICU. I thought why centre has to provide for it and that state cant provide it..Dawra: In Mumbai they told hospitals to create an alert four hour before the cryogenic tankers run dry. one question was not to have buffer in cryogenic. Tamil Nadu has taken a lot of effort to increase capacity. that is how system, functions..SG: Apropos suggestion from bench on doctor, health ministry has sent this letter to all states. Letter states that all states and UTs to persuade MBBS graduates to help in covid-19 management. final year MBBS students can be used to give teleconsultation.SG: Services of senior resident doctors may continue to be utilized like new recruitments. remuneration be given who works for 100 days in COVID19 duty. Prime Minsiter National COVID19 samman will also be given to them.Justice Chandrachud: Most important thing is missing is that they need to be given additional marks NEET. Money will not be an incentive. This will be. SG: This suggestion will be taken into account at highest level.Justice Shah: This can't be only on paper. You have to seek compliance from states.Advocate Jaideep Gupta: Himachal was giving 1500 to 3000 to students to take the covid duty SG Mehta: It was a WhatsApp forward which is not true Justice Chandrachud: Seems to be a fake news.SG: Audit committee will look at the actual demand for oxygen, how this oxygen is being distributed from suppliers, problems being faced by Delhi in accessing the supply of oxygen. i can send the names in sealed cover to you..Justice Chandrachud: You email us the names. Whoever is arguing before us we ask questions. we appreciate the efforts taken by your officers to comply with our order. We will stretch you further and we like the spirit how it was achieved in 24 hours.SG: We had a high-level meeting with Maharashtra government officials and genuinely interacted Justice Chandrachud: Our idea is not to say that experts suggested by you was not correct but now with one a and a half year old pandemic there is wealth of best practices and replicate.Justice Chandrachud: Idea is to create a national pool of learning for the country. Its not like laying down policy for you. We know if you make policy error we can hold you accountable. But who will look at us. We will not take over the policy-making function of the executive.Justice Chandrachud: We dont want to make it Delhi centric. we are looking at it from everyone's point of view. SG: Formula needs to be revisited. So it needs to be looked at by other experts across India too. Doctors etc in the committee should be delhi based.Justice Chandrachud: We can relieve Ms Dawra now so that she can go back to her national work. Justice Shah: Mr Mehra the concern is oxygen is supplied but not distributed well Adv Rahul Mehra: We are grateful to centre for providing 730 MT of oxygen to Delhi..Mehra: My endeavour will be to not make it adversarial. Please look at our compilation, it has details of oxygen received by Delhi from April 28 to May 5..Mehra: Over the last 2 days additional supply was from RIL Jamnagar. On May 4 we got 80 MT and yesterday we got 103 MT then we got imported oxygen from mundhra. Yesterday there was discrepancy on whether Delhi received 585 or 555 mt, we received 555 mt as on May 4..Mehra: As on 9 am we have received 189 MT oxygen and 16 MT is in transit. I am not saying what is submitted is incorrect. a lot of it that has been submitted we don't know it is supply chain..Mehra: After Supreme Court intervened we got 730 but since its 185 as on 9 am it cannot be 560 MT in whole by today..Mehra: Centre before this bench and not waiting till Monday are trying to wriggle out of the 700 MT. You had ordered the supply chain or logistical plan before the court..Mehra: Not a single word on the allocation process...endeavor today is to shortchange the entire process. grateful if you read between the lines. SC: Yes they have justified the 560 MT of oxygen too..Mehra: All our officers report to centre and we have to respond to the LG. So centre knows on real time basis as to whats happening in Delhi. We are evens struggling for a cylinder and this mathematical calculation can await compared to misery of patients..Mehra: All our doctors and all officers from CEO down below are trying to help in crisis. If even one such person is made a part of the committee then it will be injustice to life of a person Justice Chandrachud: Is there any problem with you in lifting the supply?.Mehra: Every state has got the allocated amount. Maharashtra has got 150 MT more than demand. ICU beds is half compared to Delhi. every patient in Delhi is struggling for oxygen. No of tests is 2.3 lac per million, delhi is 9.3 lac per million.Mehra: We are testing more and that's why we have more covid positive. We have a live app. SG: Answer the question.. Mehra: I did not interrupt Mr Mehta and I seek the same indulgence.Mehra: 16,000 Non ICU beds are there and the Delhi app gives a real time data. we have followed the example of 10 l oxygen per non icu bed. we have 500 each in Radha Soam Satsang, common wealth village and one other. Total requirement comes to 707 MT..Mehra: Nirankarari Mission in burari we have 1000 beds, yamuna complex we have 1000 and Radha Soam Satsang we have 1500 beds but we don't have oxygen for these beds. HC asked us if how this can be augmented for peak in mid may. so sour requirement on May 10 is 976 MT.Justice Chandrachud: The real requirement is for we the people. Mehra: Supplier has brief contractual obligations. Linde was supplying to 40 hospitals. Similarly inox and others were supplying. They did last mile delivery, when this upsurge happened, demand has gone up 5x time.Mehra: Tankers ought to have been taken up by centre too for equitable distribution there is complete non application of mind on part of centre Justice Shah: Come to your suggestions.Mehra: We are also not an industrial state; we have never been in procurement or supplying oxygen. 2 senior is officers is looking at the entire supply of oxygen and must have slept one or two hours in last 15 days.Mehra: Each 14 IAS officers have been allocated one hospital each. This is done to ensure equitable distribution, allocation is increasing. we don't lift, its the suppliers who lift and brings to door step of delhi govt.Mehra: We have come up with pro rata distribution. Some hospital has storage tanks and at some air pressure oxygen is moved to these storage tankers,. smaller hospitals do not have this facility and use cylinders..Mehra: So we have hospitals with lmo plant, one which has plant but need cylinders and then hospitals which only thrive on cylinders. Delhi govt is not involved here and its a matter of professionals so tankers are diverted to a particular hospital..SG: The court can consider having a large body which will not only look at allocation but also state wise allocation of oxygen. the committee can form a smaller committee for auditing each state governments. in that small committee one officer from state, centre and two doctors.Justice Chandrachud: You can share a concrete plan with us when we resume after 45 minutes..Adv Jaideep Gupta: States are before us today. Mehra: Let the matter be deferred till Monday. This seems to be a way to wriggle out of the 700 MT order.Justice Chandrachud: Be rest assured the order will not be like a witchhunt of the Delhi government. Just allow we didn't allow recriminations against centre we won't allow the same for Delhi govt. you may have ideological differences but that is of no concern for us.Senior Adv Meenakshi Arora: We have received suggestions. One of them is industry is a major part of this and without them supply cannot take place. So they should be on committee. Another suggestion was maybe to have doctors from the private sector too..Justice Chandrachud: The committee can have discussion with the industry leaders for logistics but they need not be a part of the committee. but inputs can be drawn from them. Like IT industry too..Advocate Mehra: It was submitted by SG Mehta that there is no dearth of oxygen in the country. This was substantiated further..Adv Mehra: It was submitted that steel industry was also manufacturing LMO. we also have in reserves 16,000 MT oxygen. This is important for arguments of pre-lunch. So it was said other states will suffer if delhi is given 700 MT. So its 200 MT more than what its for them.Adv Mehra: So out 8,000 MT, 200 MT more is less than 2 percent pan India. this will have direct impact on thousands of lives. No document has been placed and no averment has been made. Its an SLP on contempt. In suo motu proceedings hopefully they will place all this.Mehra: Centre cannot say that other states will suffer when other states have said anything. It must be put on affidavit. Then states will reply and a holistic view will be taken..Mehra: Just to emphasise on April 28, there was a 113% increase in Delhi demand of oxygen from 490 to 700 MT. Now an attempt is being again made to give less than 560 MT which was given after intervention of this court..Mehra: The submissions by centre goes against the April 30 order of this court itself. It was ordered that deficit of Delhi demand will be addressed and accept projected demand. People of delhi are dying and centre should not be allowed to dilute the solemn assurance of 700 MT.Mehra: Look at Chhatisgarh and Tamil Nadu, what was given was more than what was asked for. SG: Why are we going into this and making it state vs state Mehra: MP demanded 445 and 553 was given without reason. Mharashrtra asked for 1500 and 1660 MT was given..Mehra: We have no put Delhi here. we demanded 700 and we were given 480 MT. if at all is required then an audit is required on all these allocations which was arbitrary and lives were lost. why has centre not taken over tankers. tankers must be taken over..Mehra: The Empowered group report by centre shows that on the basis of covid management experience they have classified cases at class 1 which was mild, class 2 which was moderate, class 3 was 3 percent severe icu cases..Mehra: It cannot be a paper exercise and be alive to an ground situation. It is no use saying to a ICU patient that we can give you only 24 Litre oxygen and not 36 litres as centre says so. This needs a relook before an audit takes place. Then a meaningful exercise can take place.Mehra: It should be pan India top 5 states audit. As far as learnings are considered then the report can be sent to states and since health is a state subject states can look into it. State political executive are answerable to their people.Mehra: All that has been argued yesterday and today is when we are not put to notice and made over a contempt petition. we want to submit a detailed plan of action and affidavit over the weekend SG Mehta: Yes they have accepted my suggestion.Mehra: We have developed a system where home isolated patients can avail oxygen cylinder where patients upload their details and can get hold of it. Thus citizens can be helped during crisis.Mehra: Let all these issues come on an affidavit and let us reply within 24 hours and place it on record. All that is said across the bar can be contended via documents. A pre supposition should not be there that a govt is not working that's why an audit is needed..Mehra: We have also developed pan India terms of preference. Every time an attempt is made to show how allocation is pan India it is being prompted. What is important is to have an independent audit in which the court and citizens have confidence in..Mehra: There will be no prejudice if it is heard on Monday, and states are also heard. Centre is in contempt of my lords orders..SG Mehta: Delhi has made this a centre vs delhi and state vs state issue. I have answers on every fact. I will look very petty and small if I respond. every state gave a very unrealistic attempt and after a realistic assessment in discussion with state officers allocation was made.SG Mehta: Allotment of Bombay cannot be compared with that of Maharashtra. Instead of shifting blame etc should be avoided. anything further from me will make this important issue very petty.SG: There needs to be an audit. it is just to see 100 rupees is sent to state and to see how 100 rupees was spent. I have been saying there has been a systematic failure. Centre has been given mandate this twice and you need not tell us people are dying.SG: Its a disaster and disaster is being managed. we have to see that there is equitable distribution of resources. I cannot start nitpicking and score debating points. I just don't want to see more people suffering..Adv Rahul Mehra shares the terms of reference prepared by Delhi govt in this case: What is the correct formula to determine the genuine requirement of LMO, What are the infrastructural and logistical requirement for transport of cryogenic tankers to state and within states.Mehra: The terms of reference will also identify the bottlenecks in supply of liquid medical oxygen. Senior Adv Jaideep Gupta: There are three orders by the court in this case. One on April 27 then april 30 and then yesterday. Problem we are dealing today is in April 27 order.Gupta: Centre was asked to apprise current and projected demand of oxygen. Basis of allocation from central pool and effectively the entire gamut of oxygen was concerned. Centre and other affidavits talk about current scene but not projection..Gupta: If you do not project it like gasping in darkness. Delhi's problem is because no one knows what will be on 15th may, 20th may, 30th may..Amicus Curiae Gupta: admittedly status has to be dynamic and still my friends are disputing the current position of April 30. if this problem has to be solved then it be done so by formula. the epidemiological formula has to be incorporated..Gupta: if 80 percent recover at home and 20 percent require oxygen then a formula from ICMR can show of a person require oxygen then what should be the quantum required by one person..Gupta: What is available now, what is the projection, what is the gap and how will it be bridged was the purpose of last order. centre was to submit a plan and there is no plan today. it was said plan will remain in force til further hearing takes place but if no plan then?.Amicus Curiae: In my submission 700 MT should hold till a new formula is arrived at or at least till the next date. because once you order an audit then it will be like 700 has been taken away. Delhi has oxygen shortage and its a fact.Amicus Curiae: a committee can be set up after hearing the states and terms of reference is already there in May 5 order.SG: I have noted down all suggestion. but saying that there is a need of oxygen and that 700 mt is not unrealistic. but my stand is it is not because of supply of oxygen but due to a systemic failure here. we are not blaming anyone.Justice Shah: You have said 590 MT and not 490 MT Senior Adv Meenakshi Arora: forecasting the requirement is done by infectious disease modellers and epidemiologists. they can forecast to see when disease spikes how will it pan out. we too have very good people in this country.Arora: It has today spiked in Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore. this virus tends to move and will spike in somewhere or else. Today Delhi would have a requirement of 700 and perhaps the requirement may reduce in the future..Arora: To avoid what happened in June 2020 and then we didn't have testing kits, oxymeters, and today we did not do accurate forecasting and thus shortage of oxyge, ventilators and beds.Arora: Whatever you order today it will be followed in other states. There were higher predictions made and it came true than what the government believed. Experts may not be part of govt, but such epidemiologists virologist, and infectious disease modelers be roped in.Arora: Once we meet this criteria there is need to create buffer. tomorrow we may have to rush to kolkata or Bhubaneshwar hence forecast and buffer stock is need. Reduction of oxygen in any way to Delhi cannot happen anything extra should be stored. We are not in a stage to reduce.Arora: I can share the list of top virologists, epidemiologists and modelers who can make an accurate prediction..Justice Chandrachud: We will dictate the order in some time.Justice Chandrachud: Thank you, everyone Justice Shah: All of you have given good assistance .Bench rises, order will be uploaded

COVID-19 crisis: “Don’t want to make it Delhi centric, looking at it from everyone's point of view:” Supreme Court [LIVE UPDATES]

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