#PetitionerInPerson: In Conversation with Claude Alvares (Part 1)

In this edition of #PetitionerInPerson, Bar & Bench’s Anuj Agrawal speaks to Claude Alvares, one of the co-founders of the Goa Foundation. Over the last three odd decades, the Goa Foundation has been at the forefront of protecting the State’s environment..It was the Goa Foundation’s efforts that eventually led the Supreme Court to intervene in the allotment of coal mining licenses. In the first part of the interview, Alvares talks about his initial days, the struggles of environmental activism and more..Anuj Agrawal: You studied in Bombay, and got married there with plans to move to Bihar? What got you to Goa?.Claude Alvares: We had just got married, and did not really know anyone in Bihar. Some of our friends from Xaviers were in Goa, so we decided to come here. It was supposed to be a halfway house. But then we got stuck here..We started out in a farm in the western ghats but that didn’t work out. We were people from the city who had no experience whatsoever in agriculture but we wanted to do something different..Anuj Agrawal: What was the idea?.Claude Alvares: The idea was to have a collective sort of a farm run by an NGO. Whatever income we would get from the farm, we would use to service welfare activities for the village people living in the surrounding areas..Anuj Agrawal: Was this something you always wanted to do?.Claude Alvares: Yes. Neither my wife nor I were too interested in city life. It did not attract us in the least. Both of us were lecturers, she in Sophia’s and I in Xavier’s. We used to go out in the social service league in college. We would to go to villages and expose ourselves to village life and work for a couple of weeks. Making roads, drought relief and that sort of thing..Anuj Agrawal: In 1976 you went to the Netherlands to do your PhD..Claude Alvares: Yes. It was on decolonising studies – basically critiquing the histories and sciences of the world. They were all written by westerners, so [my PhD] was about working out a new model. How to approach science and technology in India, in China..After that, I came here got married and went to Goa. But we refused to go to Universities anymore though we were both qualified.Even at that time colleges were becoming quite boring, people were teaching the same thing over and over again. Professors would pull out the same notes, every year and read them out. That is not something interesting people would spend rest of their lives doing, so we got out..Anuj Agrawal: As a lecturer, were you different?.Claude Alvares: Well, I told my students that those who did not want to attend did not have to. Those who wanted to be marked present simply had to sign the [attendance] book and go..My understanding was that if someone doesn’t want instructions and is willing to instruct himself maybe she will do it better. Why should we come in the way?.Also, that way I got only the interested people in the class. Whether they failed or not was not my concern. I suppose they were happy, I was happy (pauses) everyone was happy except the college!.Anuj Agrawal: Did you have any run-ins with the college administration?.Claude Alvares: Well (pauses) in 1972, we organised this 3-day music festival called Malavli. It was a huge music festival and marked the first public appearance by Amjad Ali Khan as a musician playing the sarod..We were all whacky guys, we were doing all sorts of crazy things. We would bring out our own newspaper, most of the time we were in the canteen. We took college lightly and did what we wanted to do. And the interesting thing is that all of us did well in our academic studies..Anuj Agrawal: In 1987, the first PIL was filed by your wife, Norma, who is a law graduate..Claude Alvares: You know, [Norma] never saw the inside of the law college. She went every year just to collect the scholarship she got for standing first in class..Anuj Agrawal: What prompted you to take legal recourse? .Claude Alvares: Our organization had started by then and there were two issues that we thought needed legal intervention. At that time, the PIL culture was just developing with Justice Bhagwati..But human rights and environmental issues have a specific niche in this country which is difficult to disturb. We have a huge body of environment laws developed only by the Supreme Court and the High Courts. Last year we did a survey of jurisprudence all over the world. And one of the articles we came across, written by an Australian judge – almost three quarters of it was on Indian environmental law..Anuj Agrawal: Coming back to 1987. Did you consult different lawyers?.Claude Alvares: Indira Jaising was our mentor. She is the one who came to Goa to argue our first PIL against the Ramada beach resort. If the coastline is still intact today it is because of the 1988 judgement in the Ramada case..Anuj Agrawal: Is that what you wanted?.Claude Alvares: In 1987, the Government of India suddenly opened Goa for international charter tourists. To meet the demands they said that hotels have to be constructed of which Ramada was the first..Now the approved plans were for 1+2 [storeys] and 45 meters high. We came in possession of Ministry of Environment & Forests letter which clearly said otherwise. We lost that case but got this 200 meter victory – no construction allowed within 200 meters of the sea and 100 meters for every tidal river..Anuj Agrawal: Didn’t you face opposition?.Claude Alvares: Oh of course. The Advocate General said that we were financed by the tourism industry of Singapore! We have faced such allegations for at least 15 years. People like Micky Chagla said that we were financed by people from Malaysia, they don’t want our tourism to develop..Then, when we filed cases against every hotel they said it was at the behest of some other hotel, so the Singaporeans were forgotten. This went on and on. But we didn’t care a damn..Anuj Agrawal: How do you deal with that?.Claude Alvares: The same thing is happening with the present projects of the current Defence Minister, and former Chief Minister of Goa. And we have an Advocate General who is paid eight lacs a month, plus seventy-five thousand every time he goes out of station. He argues all cases, be it in NGT Pune or the NGT in Delhi..What happens is that cases get stalled because Nadkarni cannot be present [in all courts]. Today my wife called me from [the NGT in] Pune and said that the judges were livid because the AG was not present, and a case could not be heard..Now, on the one hand they blame us, and say we are stalling these projects but by having one legal officer running around in 4-5 courts (pauses) obviously he can’t appear in all matters..Anuj Agrawal: Do you receive financial assistance to take up litigation?.Claude Alvares: No, no. See Parrikar says that when he went to the Supreme Court he had to pay lacs of rupees. So I said, “Correct, when you are a politician from the BJP or Congress nobody is going to argue free for you.”.If the Chief Minister of Goa wants to argue a case in the Supreme Court against one of his political opponents, the cheque is (pauses) you know you don’t write the figure. So you can’t apply the same yardstick to me..Anuj Agrawal: So but how did you manage?.Claude Alvares: Every case of ours is argued for free. Every case! First of all I have got an in-house counsel, my wife. She argues all cases at the High Court level. Then the Supreme Court cases are argued by a group of lawyers who are totally committed to the cause. People like Sanjay Parekh, Raj Panjwani, Prashant Bhushan, Indira Jaising, and KK Venugopal..When Indira Jaising became ASG, we went to KK Venugopal. He took the case pro bono..Actually, my wife got the Padma Shri and he got the Padma Bhushan at the same function. So, we were sitting and he said anytime there is a case he would argue. We kept this in mind, but never really thought about asking him..He appeared for us on more than 3-4 occasions for final hearing, got us a good order in our favour, and did not charge a single cent. One month later, we got an income tax enquiry asking us how we paid KK Venugopal. So I said you should have asked him no?.I referred them to my chartered accountant, he showed them all my accounts, they are actually filed every year on time, so they realized that there was nothing they could do..Anuj Agrawal: But when the State decides to crush a voice, it can get quite difficult..Claude Alvares: We are not bothered. See, you can get crushed if you have FCRA clearance. Because then you put yourself under the hands of the government which is the nastiest institution you can get. Particularly the BJP government. So you can be sure that they will go after you if they can get a chance..Anuj Agrawal: So did they go after you?.Claude Alvares: What can they have against me? The Goa government itself finances me, [but] they don’t know about it..The government has this plastic project. A long time ago, I had submitted a proposal to manage the plastic garbage; I have got grants from the UN for this work. And for the the last 4-5 years half my budget has come from the Goa government..See, maybe they know. I am sure Parrikar has got my entire income tax record, everything. He must also be knowing there is nothing he can do so he is now making allegations..But what can they do against the Goa Foundation? We don’t take money from abroad, all our lawyers argue for free..What can they do?.(In the second part of the interview, Claude shares his thoughts on the mining lobby in Goa, the Supreme Court and his advice for young lawyers)