In Conversation with Justice Ruma Pal

Justice Ruma Pal is one of the most well-known judges in the history of the Supreme Court. Elevated as a judge of the Calcutta High Court in 1990, she was eventually elevated to the Supreme Court in 2000 where she served for six years. In this interview with Bar & Bench, Justice Pal talks about her early days as a student in Shantiniketan, on being the only woman in Nagpur’s College of Law and how the Indian judiciary ought to change..Bar & Bench: You studied law in Nagpur. First, why Nagpur and second, why law?.Justice Ruma Pal: I had always wanted to be a teacher. So after graduating I taught English at South Point School [in Calcutta] for a short while. After a few months though, I had a tiff with the management..Bar & Bench: A tiff?.Justice Ruma Pal: I had disciplined some students and detained them after school hours. I went to get my books for correction and when I came back I found that the children had gone. So I asked who let them go and was told that some gentleman who was neither a teacher nor a caretaker had let them go. Now I was just 19 and this hurt my ego (laughs). So I made complaint and left the school..At that point of time, my brother was in Nagpur and so I went and stayed with him. When he asked me what I intend to do, I said I haven’t thought of anything. He said the law college is close by and that I should go there. So I did..Bar & Bench: But didn’t you want to stay in Calcutta?.Justice Ruma Pal: I was not really brought up in Calcutta at all. In fact, I went to a number of schools since my father had a transferable job. And soon after I finished my schooling, my father passed away. My mother felt we were getting far too westernized, and so my sister and I were both admitted to Visva Bharati University in Shantiniketan. And that was really a watershed moment in my life..Bar & Bench: In what sense?.Justice Ruma Pal: It brought me from a completely westernized background and threw me into a pool of Bengali culture. Initially I didn’t like it at all. The bare feet, the long hair etc. It was very different from anything I was used to..But by the time I left after four years I loved it. It was a life changing experience. I have been to other universities like Nagpur, Oxford and others. And nothing comes close..Don’t forget that this was in 1956 and Tagore had died in 1941 so his influence was still there. You were very close to nature, our classes were held under trees. The teachers were different. There was a lot of music, a lot of freedom and culture..You were very conscious of the seasons. The fact is that when people were brought up in the kind of Anglo-Indian culture that we had, you think in terms of spring, summer, winter, autumn but the fact is that India has six seasons. Did you know that India has six seasons? Anyway (pauses).Bar & Bench: So you started your law at Nagpur University..Justice Ruma Pal: I had no interest in law, and it was simply my brother’s suggestion that made me take it up. Anyway, I joined it and the principal told me that I could not attend classes publicly..Bar & Bench: Why?.Justice Ruma Pal: Because women did not. He said that I could can take my classes privately, give the exams privately but that I cannot attend classes with everyone else..Bar & Bench: Because you were a girl?.Justice Ruma Pal: Yes. This would be in 1960. And I had just come from Shantiniketan where there was absolute parity and freedom. I told him that I would attend classes whether he likes it or not..So I used to attend, but every time I sat on a bench, the entire bench next to me would be empty. The boys would cramp themselves in the benches but they wouldn’t sit next to me. Ultimately they gave me a separate table and a chair next to the lecturer so that the boys could sit comfortably (laughs)..I was the first woman in Nagpur’s College of law. So much so that when they had a photograph of all the college professors and students union heads, they included me simply because I was the only woman..Bar & Bench: And from Nagpur, you went to St. Annes College, Oxford..Justice Ruma Pal: When I went for the convocation some youngsters came up to me from Calcutta university and they wanted to know whether I was interested in studying in any of universities abroad..Someone had told me unless I had BCL from Oxford, the first class first degree from Nagpur University was worth nothing..I didn’t even know what “BCL” stood for but nevertheless when those boys asked me whether I was interested, I told them I wanted a to do a BCL from Oxford. And the reason why I chose St Annes was because when they gave me a list of colleges, it was the first one on the list!.Bar & Bench: After completing the BCL, you came back to India. At this point of time, were you thinking of practicing?.Justice Ruma Pal: Never. I had always wanted to be a teacher. I never even sat for the Bar because I thought the BCL was an academic degree and I had wanted to come back and teach. So I came back and met the Vice Chancellor of Calcutta University and asked him if I could get a part-time job. And he said no since I had no experience. I then went around from office to office looking for a job because practice was out of the question..Bar & Bench: But you had a BCL from Oxford –.Justice Ruma Pal: So everything would fall in place? That is what I thought too but it did not. In fact one solicitor firm told me that they had a rule against employing women because they would get married and leave. So having no other alternative, there was a relative of mine who happened to know [the future Chief Minister of West Bengal] Sidhartha Shankar Ray. And so I joined his office in 1968 and that’s how I started..Bar & Bench: That must have been an interesting office..Justice Ruma Pal: Oh yes it was but I left when he became a whole-time politician. I was more interested in earning my living and it was imperative that I stand on my feet. So I joined Mr. Dipankar Gupta who in fact was Ray’s junior..Bar & Bench: Was it difficult to be a woman lawyer at that time?.Justice Ruma Pal: Clients tended not to trust women. They thought that women would not be able to fight, to put it to the judge clearly etc. So you had to fight it out..In fact, I frequently tell my juniors that there will be some breakers along the way. And once you overcome these, then things are very calm. It is this initial resistance that you have to overcome..Bar & Bench: And when did you overcome this resistance?.Justice Ruma Pal: Initially, I remember winning a case and the opposing counsel saying “Ah yes, you have won because of a pretty face.” This devalues your achievement and also makes you lose confidence. It also made me so angry..Fortunately I appeared before Justice Sabyasachi Mukerjee who was the toughest judges of my time and certainly made no allowances on the basis of your gender. If anything, he was sterner with women. And I bested that very lawyer in Mukherjee’s court..But there were lots of little incidents. I remember going to Howrah District Court and a crowd forming outside the courtroom saying, “Come and see a girl argue.” .Bar & Bench: So you built up your practice over the years, eventually becoming quite successful. In 1984, you were offered a post at the Bench..Justice Ruma Pal: Yes. But the judge who offered it to me retired and we got a new Chief Justice. Now, the normal rule is that the Chief Justice sends for you and it is a kind of invitation to join the Bench. But this new Chief Justice got his PA to ask me to submit my bio-data. I thought this was not on, I didn’t submit the bio-data and I didn’t go see him..Bar & Bench: Are you short-tempered?.Justice Ruma Pal: Pretty (laughs). Well, not in court. I hope not..Bar & Bench: So in 1984, you refused-.Justice Ruma Pal: I did not refuse. Lets just say I did not cooperate. The next time it was offered to me was in 1989 by an Acting Chief Justice. He had recommended three of our names and then Chief Justice PD Desai approved these three names. So I became a judge during PD Desai’s tenure..Bar & Bench: Why did you agree to join the Bench?.Justice Ruma Pal: Well, the responsibility of practice is enormous; in winning a case. The kind of tension that you go through to win not for yourself for your client – there is a terrific amount of tension. And if you have got a reasonable practice, you would have a case in Court 26, one in 19 and so on and so forth. Your clerk is calling you, your juniors are calling, your clients are calling you..So there is a mental tension as well as a very physical tension involved. Some judge may be refusing to give your junior a passover for instance – this was something I just couldn’t take any more. By this time, I was 47 and decided to join the Bench..Bar & Bench: As a judge, you must have found your patience taxed..Justice Ruma Pal: At times. When I became a judge, I knew in my mind what kind of judge I wanted to be. By that time there were certain characteristics in some judges that I didn’t like – favoritism for instance. There were various other things I did not like..Bar & Bench: The Seven Deadly sins?.Justice Ruma Pal: Something like that (smiles). And so I had decided that there would be certain practices that I would follow. For example I would keep myself aloof from even the slightest that I may be inclined in favor of one party rather than the other. Second is the actual behavior in court with the lawyer irrespective of their standing. The third is coming on time because if you don’t maintain the discipline, you can’t expect the lawyers or even your officers to do so..Bar & Bench: Just a few months before your elevation, you were a member of the Bar and now you are a member of the Bench. You must have shared a certain level of camaraderie with other lawyers..Justice Ruma Pal: When you become a judge, there is a kind of solicitation by the Bar. And I had to tell them then that I was sorry but I would have to completely disassociate myself with all of them..Yes, we were very close. We used to travel together, go on holidays etc but I completely cut it off. My husband, who is also a lawyer, shifted his chamber out of the house. So no litigant or lawyer could come to the house. The house was completely sacrosanct..Bar & Bench: This must have made you unpopular..Justice Ruma Pal: It might have. But I wasn’t there to be popular. At least they were assured that no one would have dinner with me or talk to me about the case in a social setting. There was none of that..Bar & Bench: How would you deal with lawyers seeking adjournments or who would have long winded arguments?.Justice Ruma Pal: The thing is that if you are strict, and strict across the board then everyone respects you. But if you are strict with some and not with others then people start resenting you. But if they know that a judge doesn’t grant adjournments to any one, then they respect that judge..Bar & Bench: In January 2000 you were elevated to the Supreme Court but that was not without a bit of controversy. You were sworn in the forenoon while Justice Sabharwal and others were appointed in the morning. And then J. Sabharwal went on to become CJI. Any thoughts?.Justice Ruma Pal: You know this is all rubbish that I didn’t become the Chief Justice of India because of some miscommunication. Absolute rubbish. I really don’t think there is any truth behind this at all..It was just in the normal course of things. In fact, J. Sabharwal became a judge of the Delhi High Court before I became one. So in the natural order of things, he should have been sworn in before me..Bar & Bench: Do you see elevations to the Supreme Court as a “promotion” of sorts?.Justice Ruma Pal: No I don’t. It is ridiculous that a mere geographical change of location makes a person wiser. If I was unwise as a High Court judge I don’t suddenly become god-like once I join the Supreme Court. It is this attitude that somehow the Supreme Court judges are superior – that is what I don’t like..It is the jurisdiction that is different. That is is all..Bar & Bench: But it has become a hierarchy of sorts –.Justice Ruma Pal: Unfortunately, yes. Which is why in many Supreme Court judgments, you will find a lambasting of the High Courts, as if you are speaking to a subordinate..Bar & Bench: The High Courts, for their part, do the same to District Courts..Justice Ruma Pal: I can even understand that because the High Court has disciplinary jurisdiction and administrative control over the District Courts..The High Court is supreme in its state and it is under no one. .The other thing I don’t understand is this is the distinction made between a Chief Justice and a puisne judge. For instance when there is a provision that the green tribunal or some other tribunal must be headed by a Supreme Court judge or the Chief Justice of a High Court – why?.Because of the accident of seniority?.There are several High Court judges who are absolutely competent but by reason of becoming judges later in life, do not make it as Chief Justice. And a person who just happens to have the accident of birth – how is he superior as a Chief Justice, as far as judicial capacity is concerned, to a puisne judge?.Bar & Bench: Your Tarkunde lecture in 2011 – that was quite a no-holds barred speech you gave..Justice Ruma Pal: Well someone has to speak. Someone who doesn’t have an axe to grind..Bar & Bench: You have said that judicial independence cannot exist without accountability. How do you introduce this accountability in the system?.Justice Ruma Pal: In two ways. One, a formal way with the possibility of disciplinary action being taken. The other is through the very transparency of the judicial process. There is no judgment that is delivered behind closed doors. It is open to the public and it is the public that will tear you to shreds if your decision is wrong..After all a judge really lives on his or her reputation. There really isn’t anything else..Bar & Bench: Do you think that of late, the judiciary has become very reluctant to change?.Justice Ruma Pal: Not really. It has always been the case. In fact, most of those who practice law are great traditionalists. It may be something to do with following precedents, something to do with looking back all the time. I don’t know but most people in the legal system are very traditional people who don’t like changing..Bar & Bench: You have criticized certain aspects of the Indian judiciary but you have also stressed on the importance of the institution itself. In one of your books, you have said that the Courts are bound to protect the Constitution. Do you think they still do?.Justice Ruma Pal: Oh yes they do. I still believe in the strength of the institution. And I think we don’t talk about the massive number of cases that the majority of judges tackle honestly, impartially and independently. They don’t make catchy headlines and it is only when one or two behave in a particular fashion that it is absolutely blown out of proportion..I don’t know the other parts of the country but as far as Bengal is concerned this honesty, impartiality and commitment I have found right down to the CJM level. Right down to the munsif level ..Bar & Bench: What do you think of the allegations of sexual harassment that were made against Justice Ganguly? Do you think he should have resigned?.Justice Ruma Pal: If it were me and some allegations like those were made against me, I would have resigned and asked for an enquiry because I don’t want to involve the office in any mudslinging of this sort..Particularly after the Supreme Court, good or bad and with or without jurisdiction, had expressed its’ view –.Bar & Bench: Surely without jurisdiction..Justice Ruma Pal: Nevertheless, unless you are going to question their motives or their competence in terms of ability, you had three impartial, experienced judges deciding the fact that there was a prima facie finding. You can’t just ignore that completely..Bar & Bench: The second half of the order says that they would not deal with allegations against retried Supreme Court judges..Justice Ruma Pal: Absolutely correct! They had no business taking it up in the first place. That was the first though that struck me. Because this was not an administrative matter, J Ganguly has nothing to do with the Supreme Court anymore just as I have nothing to do with the Supreme Court anymore..Bar & Bench: Were you surprised that allegations were raised at all?.Justice Ruma Pal: Nothing surprises me any more. Nothing at all. For all you know, anyone can make allegations against me..Bar & Bench: As a judge, how did you deal with public criticism?.Justice Ruma Pal: I remember when I decided the water dispute between Haryana and Punjab in favor of Haryana, I was labeled anti-Sikh..Why should I deal with this? It does not affect me. Listen, if your conscience is clear it doesn’t really matter what people say..Bar & Bench: Any advice for students of law?.Justice Ruma Pal: Keep your options open. My advice is after your graduation, practice for three years and then make up your mind..Bar & Bench: Why?.Justice Ruma Pal: Because it keeps your option open. Secondly, if you regret joining a job later, it will be too late to come back to profession. But once you are in the profession, it is never too late to get a job because it adds to your CV. The other way doesn’t work..Bar & Bench: One last question, as a judge what was the lowest point in your career?.Justice Ruma Pal: Let me think. The lowest would probably be when I lost my temper in the Supreme Court. Of course, losing my temper happened more than once (laughs) but on one occasion I was so angry I had to rise..That was when I delivered my ITC judgment and a senior lawyer who had been appearing, asked to see the judgment. Now I had signed the judgment but the judge sitting with me, J. Reddy had not yet signed it..Anyway, this lawyer asked to see it and I said that he could, provided he sat in court while reading it. And then I called the next matter. Suddenly the court officer whispered to me saying this senior lawyer had left with the judgment!.I was furious. I was so angry that I stopped all proceedings in court. There was dead silence. And I told them to get the lawyer back, to get the judgment back. He has obviously gone to get it Xeroxed. If a judge can’t trust a senior lawyer then that is a really low point. I felt absolutely betrayed..So I recalled the judgment, which in fact had given Rs. 400 crores to ITC, and said I am rising. Because I recalled the judgment they came back helter skelter, apologizing and so forth. “We did not see it”, “A junior took it away” etc..I told them to file an affidavit so that it was on record. And you can’t change a judgment can you? I made him sweat for twenty-four hours (laughs) and the next day, I delivered the same judgment..(This column is based on an interview that took place on January 31,2014 in Calcutta. It is the third in a series of interviews with lawyers of the Calcutta High Court, the previous two being that of Senior Advocates, Ashok Banerjee and Kalyan Bandopadhyay)