The Darshan Conversations Part I

The Law School Darshan started off as first-person review of the different national law schools in the country. So observations were to be limited to conditions of the hostels, faculty, placements etc..However, what I found was that there was very little discussion on the emergence and growth of these national law schools. Sure, almost all the faculty/students I met had their views but there wasn’t a common forum where these thoughts could be expressed. The “Darshan Conversations” is an experimental attempt to correct this in some way..Without further ado, meet the first participant in the Darshan Conversation: Navajyoti Samanta a former Assistant Professor at the National Law University Orissa at Cuttack (NLU-O). Transcribed below are excerpts from our chats, e-mails and general rants..AA: Don’t you think it is slightly hypocritical to criticise law schools once you are out of them? I mean if you have all these ideas then why didn’t you share them while you were actually part of the system?.NS: Okay I admit it has become a fashion for law academics to denounce the system once they get out of any law school. But I don’t want to just target the underlying faults; rather I want to discuss a radical road map for future reform and to stimulate a debate of sorts. If we look at the evolution of Indian legal education system we would find three distinct phases – the colonial phase when law colleges were only in the presidency towns and colonial capitals, then the deluge of law colleges post-independence and finally the third generation law schools post 1980s in the form of the National Law Universities (NLUs). The question is do these third generation law schools in India need to change? And if they do, then should such change be in the form of incremental evolution or sudden revolution?.AA: What’s first on your list?.NS: I think the immediate need of the hour for all the CLAT law schools is to set up a permanent CLAT secretariat. I remember reading something about this on your site, the matter is before the Delhi High Court yes?.AA: Yeah, we had reported it a while back. It was an appeal against a decision of single judge. The court eventually decided to limit the point of consideration to the establishment of a permanent CLAT body. Not much progress since then though; the last order stated that a service report was still being awaited. How is this secretariat going to help?.NS: While many may not have problem with rotating question paper setters (reasons being it gives every law school the chance to enhance their HR, fatten their payouts – as per hearsay the hosting NLU gets 50% of the CLAT money, also IITs follow a similar pattern), most would agree that a change in the admission paper syllabus every year is a disturbing phenomenon and causes much discomfort. There should be some semblance of stability and continuity (in pattern, syllabus and address) to encourage more and more law aspirants to appear for CLAT. And a CLAT secretariat is a sensible way to make this happen..AA:Ok. What about non-CLAT law schools?.NS: Well, the CLAT secretariat could, or rather should, lobby for CLAT marks as being the main/only admission criterion for any law college in the country, be it public or private. And this secretariat can also boost its stature with innovations (some would say absolute necessity) like post-result counselling and implement best practices from other national admission tests. The BCI has hinted that they want to conduct a pan-India mandatory entrance test for all law colleges. It is time for CLAT to come forward and show that it can deliver better..AA: Well isn’t there a post-result counselling anyway for CLAT? And seriously, how do you think this is going to help students?.NS: CLAT counselling process has been quite diverse, but the best way would be to let students choose their institution after the results are out instead of putting down the choices beforehand. From comparing the CLAT in last two years under different counselling process the first advantage of post-result counselling is that we get students who are interested in joining a particular college so there are lesser chances of dropping out. Secondly, it makes the process more streamlined; it will reduce instances of multiple admission lists peppered with confusion and the harrowing changes for candidates from one college to another..AA: Noted. Yeah, one of the stories we published on CLAT 2012 showed that students could, by the end of counselling process leapfrogged through three/four unis. But let us face it, one the biggest positive for CLAT from an institution’s point of view is the revenue generation? I remember interviewing Ranbir Singh; he was quite clear about this aspect. NLUs might not agree to let go of this, especially those who have still not conducted the exam..NS: Agreed. But you know this can be easily resolved by paying the exact costs of overheads only and splitting the pie equally..AA: Hmm.. I am not so sure this is going to work out. I mean some NLUs obviously entered CLAT expecting a decent earning from hosting the exam. I think something like this requires one or two individuals to take up the mantle and then really take it forward. I mean it is possible….but I have my doubts. Anyway, what are your thoughts on the way finances are administered in NLUs?.NS: At present all the NLUs are governed by their own respective state legislations, this leads to different governance and funding framework. So some are fully funded by the state government, others get some dole from central/state government while others get no public funding at all..A common statute where President of India is the chancellor of all the NLUs with a common/comparable structure with respect to the Executive Council, Finance Council and General Council with a one-time grant of 100 crore from central government per NLU (meaning an interest of approximately 10-15 crores per annum) would allow for economic as well as functional autonomy of the NLUs..AA: Wait. You want the Government of India to provide a 100 crore to each law school? That is 1,400 crore right there my friend. Are you serious?.NS: Well, if you look at news reports on the unspent budget of the Central Universities, some of them have over 50 crore lying in their coffers. It would be safe to presume that the University Grants Commission (UGC) would by default have a surplus which would run into hundred of crores. This unspent money can easily be spread across all the law schools. Moreover these schools should be allowed to have their common charter on rules of appointment which may be above and beyond the standards set by UGC. The local High Court should not have any direct role to play in the running of the law school except for one seat in the EC/FC..AA: Yeah, I also think that High Courts are getting a bit too close to the running of some law schools. In fact isn’t there a practice of a Supreme Court judge being the Patron elect or something like that for each law school? And over and above this, you have the Chief Justice of the High Court being ex-officio something or the other right?.NS: Again, different NLUs have different structures to interact with the judiciary; we should welcome suggestions from these judges. However, if we allow them to actively participate in day to day policy decisions and initiatives, things do become a bit uncomfortable. I am sure in your visits around the country you would have heard numerous ‘stories’ on this..AA: Well, not really. I did find it interesting to note that NLU Jodhpur is headed by a retired High Court judge. Actually, one of the most common complaints I heard from students was with regard to faculty. What I found particular worrisome was that a lot of them were complacent about this, resigned to this in fact. Thoughts?.NS: I don’t think anyone believes that all the faculties in all the NLUs are the best. I think this is true for every place be it NLUs or the Ivy league, and the sooner we accept this fact the better. However if we do allow faculties to move freely between 2-3 NLUs, it just might change the quality of teaching..Of course it is placing a heavy burden on the teachers, they have to get acclimatised with new classes and new surroundings (also it would be quite difficult to uproot your family), so the compromise can be that every faculty has a fixed home university, but he forks out 3 months every year and becomes a visiting faculty at another NLU. We do sometimes invite faculties from abroad (Like Prof. Sophie Sparrow – Anuj) but we rarely (if ever) tap the available faculties in India. If we do follow it as a matter of institutional supply-demand then we would be able to spread the best among more students..AA:Yeah, I clearly remember asking Prof. Jaiswal of RGNUL whether there needs to be greater movement between NLU faculty. I am quoting from his interview: “Most [NLUs] also have Memorandums of Understanding allowing for the exchange of faculty and students.” I think a couple of VCs do occasionally take classes at other NLUs but there certainly isn’t any formal structure for this..What about getting people to take smaller credit courses? You know, industry experts and people with real, practical experience? Someone like Murali Neelakantan for instance?.NS: Well, one of the founding NLU VC’s once suggested that teachers should be sent to practical field training (like for corporate law they could be sent to SEBI/RBI etc., for criminal law a police department etc.) every summer..Another ingenious suggestion I heard was at this seminar organised by ISB, Hyderabad. The chief Legal Officer of a reputed bank said that there are many mid-level legal executives who would like to come and teach at NLUs, but are afraid that such a sabbatical would hamper their career progression..In Germany, such a problem is solved by regular industry-university exchanges, in India we can solve the problem by inviting willing industry veterans to take specialised courses either full time for a short duration (say for 3-4 months a year) or part time. NLUs must pay the person with part funding from the industry. More importantly, such breaks from the profession should not adversely impact the career prospects of the person. So, obviously there needs to be formal, institutional backing for such a plan to succeed. It is definitely possible..AA: Navajyoti, from the industry’s point of view; do you think a law school education really prepares you for professional life? Personally speaking, I found that a huge chunk of what I learnt in law school was just so irrelevant to my profession. There was such a massive disconnect –.NS: Stop. No one wants to hear your personal sob story. See, I do think that we need to have practice focused teaching like say internships in med-school. I can think of 3 “avenues” in which this can be done: setting up of dispute resolution forums like state consumer forum, etc., ADR set ups like seat of the arbitration council, mediation centres, and finally legal aid service centres within the law school..Most of the state consumer forums, for example, are run from traditional court building which houses other courts of all sundry nature. NLUs, which generally have ample space, can provide the infrastructural set up for the forums..Similarly for ADRs which, though state sponsored, generally languish at a dismal corner of a paan stained courthouse. They too can be set up in the campus. Admittedly, we have to keep in mind that it can lead to infrastructural and HR problems..Of course the funding for these activities would come from the government and thus NLUs would have no financial burden. Instead of students running for internships they can stay at the campus and visit the courts. Twinning programs like that of court management can also be run more efficiently by the NLUs. You could also have the state judicial academy being run from the same campus..AA: Now this sounds great on paper but what about practical realities? I mean just because there is a consumer forum in campus, does that automatically mean a student will benefit from this? And what about those who are interested in the corporate sector?.NS: We cannot grade legal cases, however consumer cases are usually less complex, it would be easier for students to understand them and also perhaps to represent the parties with guidance from their teachers. Many have said that NLU students do not enter into legal practice, well if we can show them the practical side, we may get a boost in the number of lawyers who are interested in litigation. A legal aid cell and a dispute resolution body goes hand in hand, once the client goes out of the uni the students contribution ends, however we need to follow it through and show that the hard work put in by the students have been rewarded. This satisfaction of being able to participate in seeking and getting justice is necessary for law students to think of practicing law in courts. If we do have arbitration councils operating within the framework of NLUs, it would give a window to the students to understand the nuances of negotiation, which I must say is invaluable for students aspiring for a corporate sector job..AA: Interesting. Do you ever find it amusing that they are called law Universities, when all they really teach is one subject?.NS: Oh absolutely! Interdisciplinary studies have to be encouraged for law schools. And just for your information, I am not the first to say this. Andre Bettaie had advocated this in his speech at NUJS where he exhorted the management to look beyond LLB programs and adhere to the LSE style where the department grew into a university. So too NLUs should outgrow the “one department” syndrome and offer courses outside law. The indigenous model can always be the IITs (which incidentally have started offering LLBs) which now have a host of other supplementary courses..There is another point I would like to make here. Most NLUs offer a pass course like BA/BBA/BSc right? Why not provide a Honours in those subjects and if a student is not wanting to pursue law let the student pass with a BA/BBA/BSc honours after 3 years. Also the universities can definitely enroll PhD candidates in non-law subjects in which it has expertise (like economics, sociology, management etc.), this will not only help the university build human resource (the subject teacher would be more engaged) it would also allow the university to tap into the PhD students to take tutorials (which are today mostly, if, taken by senior LLB students)..AA: Ok Navajyoti, you have raised a pretty long list of suggestions, most of them seem to be quite practical. I think it is time that I am given a chance to talk..NS: But you never have anything important to say..AA: (unprintable). Just hear me out. So during the Darshan series, I thought a lot about hostel curfews, use of nicotine and drugs on campus…you know, stuff which most of us just casually shrug off-.NS: You want to discuss that as well?.AA: Yup..NS: (Exhales loudly) Alright, go ahead..To be continued…..

The Darshan Conversations Part I

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