In Conversation with Senior Advocate, Udaya Holla

Senior Advocate Udaya Holla has been the Advocate General of Karnataka on three occasions, representing some of the biggest names in Karnataka. He continues to remain one of the most sought after lawyers in the State. In this interview with Bar & Bench, the Senior Advocate recounts the days when he got Rs.50 a month, why Perry Mason may not always be accurate, and why he would like to re-born as a litigating lawyer..Bar & Bench: If we could start from the beginning, what got you interested in the legal profession?.Udaya Holla: It is an independent profession where you are your own boss..B&B: Did you come from a family of lawyers?.Udaya Holla: I did, but you know my father did not want me to be a lawyer..B&B: Why?.Udaya Holla: He said that I did not have the patience required for a good lawyer..B&B: And how did you react to that?.Udaya Holla: Well, I said that I would join the profession and be successful at it. It was a challenge for me. I graduated from Renukacharya College of Law in Bangalore in 1973. Of course during our days, in the 70’s, law was the last choice for most..B&B: And did you join the chambers of a senior lawyer or did you work under your father?.Udaya Holla: I was with a criminal lawyer for about six months..B&B: Why criminal law?.Udaya Holla: Perry Mason. (laughs) Mason makes you take an interest in criminal law. Of course, once you get into that field, and you go to the criminal courts – you will find that the atmosphere there is not that ….. conducive for some lawyers (laughs). But then that is a hard fact of reality – you cant ignore this fact. Anyway, due to financial constraints, initially I would share an office with my father for a few years but I was on my own..B&B: And did your father hand you any cases?.Udaya Holla: No. He belonged to the old generation. Initially, when we were sharing an office and some of his clients would tell him that they wanted to engage me, he would say “No, no no. He is still young and has much to learn. Go somewhere else.”.B&B: And how did you react to that?.Udaya Holla: Well, it was frustrating but I had no choice. One builds one’s practice through sheer doggedness, sheer hard work and by being available to the client. You must have honesty, you must have integrity..When some good lawyers argue or cross-examine – you must go and watch them, that is how you learn. What you learn in your college, or what you study is totally divorced form practice. At least that is how it was in our days..I graduated in first class, I got first rank – I thought I was better than Palkhivala. But then I came into the profession and then I realized that I did not have even a speck of the knowledge that a lawyer is supposed to have..B&B: Were there any specific kinds of matters that you took up in the early years?.Udaya Holla: You know when you are young in the profession, whatever comes your way you take. But one thing you must follow, and this is something I imbued from my father, is to have honesty and integrity. If a client did not have a good case, my father told him, “Please don’t waste money. You do not have a good case.” And this is something I studiously did..B&B: And didn’t you lose clients because of that?.Udaya Holla: The way I see it, I would not like a doctor to treat me for an ailment I do not suffer, or a surgeon to conduct a surgery on me that I do not require. If I do not want that to happen to me as a patient, I am sure as a lawyer I should not ferment a litigation or take a case where a client really does not have a case..And in the long run, you know, honesty pays. Every client that I sent out, he would tell friends of his that if they wanted someone to give proper advice, they should come to me..B&B: Looking back, are there any cases that you remember with fondness?.Udaya Holla: One day, a client came to me saying that his daughter’s wedding had been fixed but the kalyan mandaap [wedding hall] had been requisitioned by the government for holding a special ceremony. So at 9:30 in the morning he came to me, literally weeping and saying that his daughter’s wedding will have to be cancelled..I drafted the petition and went to court, it must have been 11 or 11:15 by then. The Court had already sat so I just stood in front of the judge – I couldn’t mention the matter since proceedings had already begun. Eventually, after half an hour, the judge asked me why I was standing. I told him what the matter was and he said, “Alright, I will hear at the end of the board.” He heard the matter and granted me the interim relief!.This thrill that you get [from litigation] – no money can buy. You are able to get the relief to the client, wipe off his tears; that is something that is extremely exhilarating. And this still keeps me going..B&B: You were designated as Senior Advocate fairly late in your career, after three decades into the profession..Udaya Holla: Yes, that was because I refused to apply. I said that if one is worthy of becoming a Senior Advocate, there should be no need for one to apply..B&B: But those are the rules-.Udaya Holla: Those may be the rules but this rule is idiotic. Look, I was offered judgeship at the age of 39-40, and then when it came to being designated, they said I should apply! I said I would not apply because that rule, according to me, is idiotic..If you are senior enough, if other counsels are briefing you, and you have the capacity and the capability to be a judge of the High Court, then that should be enough for you to be conferred as Senior Advocate. Anyway, each person has their own views on men and matters..B&B: Then how did you become a Senior Advocate?.Udaya Holla: See ultimately they formed a committee and said that they were willing to confer it upon me, but was I willing to accept it? I said that if they are conferring it then I am ready to accept..B&B: You are known as someone who rarely raises his voice in Court. Was that a conscious decision?.Udaya Holla: Initially, I also used to get agitated, I would also raise my voice. There was a case when….well I raised my voice and the judge had to retire to his chambers!.B&B: What did you say?.Udaya Holla: Oh there was a civil matter where there was a mistake in noting the next date of hearing. When the matter suddenly came up, I went and checked the court diary. There appeared to be some interpolation in the diary. When I told the judge that, he asked me to get my clerk and appear in court later in the day..So at around 2 pm, I took my clerk along to court. The judge looked at the clerk, and started shouting at him, telling the clerk to get out of the court. The judge said that it was my clerk who had made the changes in the court diary. Now this really angered me because I knew my clerk, he was barely a month into his profession and I knew he was an innocent person..I told the judge – “If you are falsely accusing my clerk, you are risking contempt, and my clerk may file a defamation case against you.” Of course [I said this] in a raised voice, so he had to retire to his chambers. Thereafter he cooled down and gave us the dates. .When you start shouting and ranting before the judge, if the judge is annoyed, he will not give an order in your favor. And this does not hurt you; it hurts your client. You must understand that judges are human beings as well. From morning to evening, they will be sitting in court. As a lawyer, you can argue one case, go out of the courtroom, have one-by-two coffee, chit chat with the other lawyers…and then go to another court. Whereas judges cant do that. So naturally if you irritate them, they may get annoyed, and this may get transcribed or translated into their judgment a little bit..B&B: You were Advocate General of Karnataka. How was that experience?.Udaya Holla: See in my private practice, I had experienced nearly every kind of case so as Advocate General, I did not face too many difficulties. But then what happened is that I was earning one per cent of what I was earning outside. Of course, even when I took up the post, I knew that was going to be the situation. I had gone there as a measure of sacrifice. You know people were saying, “Oh he only wants to earn money.” So I was AG for three stints, did that and left..B&B: What is your opinion about the current system of appointing judges?.Udaya Holla: Ultimately, I would always say merit should be the criteria. Second, it is not just merit – you may appoint on the basis of certain ground realities in giving opportunities to people from different sections. For instance, women should be given representation, Scheduled Tribes and Scheduled Castes should be given representation. Even there, I would say, select the best out of each community. But what is happening is that they select the worst – that should not happen..B&B: And where do you think this is going wrong?.Udaya Holla: What is happening is that people who do all this “ped pakadoing” (currying favor) (laughs) they probably get elevated. A judge, apart from merit, should also have honesty and integrity. That is very, very important..B&B: What is your opinion about the physical confrontation between the lawyers, the police, and media personnel last year? What are your thoughts on the subsequent boycotting of courts?.Udaya Holla: It is sad because the Supreme Court has time and again said that we are not to boycott. As lawyers we have to uphold the Rule of Law, we have to honor the judgments. If we defy the judgments, then tomorrow, even the clients will start defying the judgments. As lawyers, we must remember – If we take law into our own hands, we will not be able to advise our clients. If we do not honor the Rule of Law, then how can you expect the masses to?.B&B: Do you think that the current generation is more impatient?.Udaya Holla: Well, even during my early days, I was very impatient. That is why my father told me not to join the profession. But once you have made up your mind, and you come into the profession, you will pass through that period of frustration. I have..When I started out, I did not know how to ask clients for money. So clients would take the work and happily go away. I never asked money from my father, how could I ask money from my clients!.B&B: And how did you learn that?.Udaya Holla: Well, even now if you ask me to collect all the unpaid bills, I will probably be able to open two more such offices (laughs). The initial years in litigation are quite frustrating because you don’t get clients till they develop some faith and confidence in you..B&B: And how do you develop this?.Udaya Holla: This is a vicious cycle. That is why it is said, “Full many a flower is born to blush unseen”. So many people leave the profession. That is why I always tell my juniors to have patience..In fact, this frustration, this struggle makes you a better human being and a better lawyer. I always say that if you are taken in a helicopter and dropped on Mt Everest, what is the point? Instead, imagine yourself climbing up the mountain, staring at Death in the face, and then reaching the top. The difference is mind-boggling isn’t it?.B&B: Some time back, you were critical of a sitting Judge of the High Court expressing opinions on a blog. Why?.Udaya Holla: See a judge should write his judgments, not his blog. If he writes on his blog, he is amenable to being criticized in a most imprudent manner. There can be vituperative attacks on him. The resultant position can be that the prestige a judge has gets reduced. A judge’s opinion should be in his judgment..Once those opinions are put into a blog, then how is he going to write his judgment? The client will come and say, you have already expressed your opinion, you now have a subject bias; therefore don’t take up the case. What happens then?.B&B: Do you think audio or video recordings of judicial proceedings should be allowed?.Udaya Holla: Well, I personally feel that there is nothing wrong in recording court proceedings. Once you record proceedings, lawyers may be prone to become more dramatic which they ought not to. Very few clients know that all these antics will not help in the long run but there are some lawyers who do these kinds of things. We as professionals must bear in mind our responsibilities. We must give our best professional advice and act in the most correct manner and with rectitude..B&B: Do you usually work seven days a week?.Udaya Holla: There were certain traits of my father that I decided I would follow. You know when clients came to his office and he told them to go to some other lawyer, he had nothing else in his mind except the interests of the client..Let me tell you this – as an individual, when I go to the dentist with a aching tooth, I am not bothered if he has a headache, whether he has a problem in his house, his son is ill…I am not bothered. I want him to treat me properly, and relieve me of my pain. That is what a lawyer should do..When the client comes to you, it is immaterial what your problems are. You have to deal with his problem. As a professional you should attend to his problem first. After all you should do justice to your profession as well as the people who depend on you..B&B: Wasn’t that difficult for your family?.Udaya Holla: I always say that if I am a successful advocate, I am grateful to my wife and my mother because they took care of my family. Family life is essential no doubt. When you are in litigation, you do get holidays. That is when you take your family somewhere, cajole them (laughs).B&B: And apart from law is there anything else that you spend time on?.Udaya Holla: Well, I used to do a lot of reading but now, I hardly have the time..B&B: No more Perry Mason?.Udaya Holla: I stopped reading Perry Mason a long time ago. You know Perry Mason and reality are slightly different (laughs). I occasionally have the time for golf, and reading but the profession does take its toll..B&B: So if someone is considering joining the legal profession, what advice would you give them?.Udaya Holla: Well s/he has to get into the offices of somebody who has Original Side work. Struggle there for 2-3 years, and that is when you learn. Once you know the basics of litigation, I think, you are a better transactional lawyer, a better corporate lawyer as well..When you draft an agreement, a sale deed – you might not know what problems can occur. But when you start in litigation, then you learn about these pitfalls, you learn what clauses need to be inserted, what should be avoided etc..B&B: Your final thoughts on the legal profession?.Udaya Holla: See, intellectually this is the best profession because there is never a dull moment at any point of time. It is like playing a game of chess every day: you make one move, and there are ten possible moves the other side may make. You are thinking all the time. To me, this is one of the best professions. If you ask me, what I would like to be in my next birth, I would say that I would like to be a litigating lawyer.