Last year, Gautam Saha left AZB & Partners for Talwar Thakore & Associates (TT&A) to head the firm's Delhi NCR office. With the joining of Saha and his team, the TT&A Delhi office grew from 5 members to 35.

"This is a big and game-changing step for the firm as we look to move to the next stage of our development", TT&A Joint Managing Partner Kunal Thakore said, describing a watershed moment in the firm's history.

In this interview with Bar & Bench's Pallavi Saluja, Saha and Thakore talk about the integration of the former's team into the firm, what sets TT&A apart, the entry of foreign law firms, top legal trends and much more.

Pallavi Saluja (PS): What prompted you to make the shift from AZB & Partners to TT&A after spending almost two decades at AZB?

Gautam Saha (GS): It was a long stint and AZB was home for me. I joined as a fourth-year Associate back in 2004 and had a great time there. It gave me an excellent platform to develop as a professional, grow the practice and develop the team. There was a fair amount of autonomy when it came to how one wanted to conduct the work.

But like everything, there comes a time when you feel that you need certain things to be different for the next phase of your professional life. For all of us, 25 to 45 is one phase, and then 45 onwards is another one. In any big firm, it’s not easy to change systems and do things very differently and I just felt that it’s time to try something different in a different kind of place.

PS: Why TT&A and not any other law firm?

GS: The choice of TT&A was, in my mind, a very obvious one. I have known most of the senior folks at TT&A for many years. I have always had very high regard for them as professionals, as individuals. TT&A is a well-known brand, and while a smaller firm in terms of size, in terms of quality, it was always right up there, whether it is the M&A practice or the Banking-Finance practice.

Lastly, and more importantly, I just felt that they are a group of people who we (my team and I) could get along with well and build something together.

There are two critical components of my professional career over the last 15 years - the team and the clients. The team was a large one when I moved from AZB. It was important that wherever I went, it had to be a place that is not just a fit for me, but also one that presents the team with an option that would be good for all of them.

For clients, TT&A is an established brand, well-known for their quality of work. It is a good fit for most of the clients we worked with. Once they knew the destination as well as the fact that the entire team is transitioning, thankfully, most of them felt confident to continue working with us.

PS: What sets TT&A apart from AZB or other big law firms?

GS: One is the fact that it is not a very big firm currently. We are now close to 100 lawyers. It’s not small, but it’s not unwieldy. It’s easy to manoeuvre things, be nimble in our approach, not just in terms of a specific matter, but also in how we work with clients, how we work within the firm across different practice areas, and across teams. You’re not bound by strict divisions or rules. That’s one big advantage. 

Secondly, I think it’s a good set of people, more or less of similar age, and there are no issues of being a founder or family issues. Different firms in India have their different personalities. Basically, we are a group of individuals who are similarly placed in life and have a common vision of what we want the firm to be, which is that it should be completely driven by merit and have a collegiate atmosphere where we work with each other, support each other and build it together.

Kunal Thakore (KT): I will echo what Gautam said. The key emphasis here is that we have more focused teams with the ability to be a little bit nimbler and react to client and market developments.

But the overarching differentiator in our view is our culture, which is very close to our hearts. The firm succeeds if we all succeed. It is very much the firm collectively doing well rather than a particular team doing well.

That’s a large part of our ethos and culture, which permeates across all our people as well. Mutual respect is also key – we are all lawyers, and as such, peers, and respect flows from that, rather than hierarchy.

PS: How has the integration been since Gautam came in with a big team of 11 partners?

KT: From a culture-fit perspective, there was a lot of assurance because we spent a lot of time together as a collective of Partners. There were administrative issues as we transitioned from just a 5-person office in Delhi to 35. But we hit the ground running from day 1, when people were working on matters. This was thanks to AZB as well. After that, everything just fell into place…including our IT and other systems. Big shout out to our IT, accounts, admin and support teams who were superb.

GS: On this one, credit needs to be given to AZB, because a move like this, with so many Partners, after so many years, is not easy. It’s not like this is the only one which has happened or will happen, but not every one of them is as smooth. Sometimes, the firms from where a team is departing can make it a little complicated. Here, both from my side as well as from the AZB side, things were handled in a very gracious and smooth manner. The key was that the client should not feel any disruption. Also, for me, having spent such a long time at AZB, I definitely did not leave on a negative note or with any kind of conflict. That played a huge role in us settling down better at TT&A.  

The other reason why I feel the integration has worked out quite well is based on our client profile and work profile. Even if we had planned it, we couldn’t have done a better job at the two being complementary. For example, the existing Banking, Finance and Debt Capital Markets teams at TT&A - the kind of transactions they do and the clientele which they work with - there wasn’t much overlap with what we did. Even on the Corporate and M&A side, there was a good kind of convergence.

PS: What are your thoughts on foreign law firms finally being allowed into India, and how does it impact a firm like yours?

KT: Personally, I am kind of ambivalent about this at the moment. Looking at the proposals, to be honest, they haven’t really moved a needle from what was proposed about two decades ago. In the meantime, a lot has happened in India, both from a regulatory and from a market perspective.

The whole point about being able to advise only on “foreign law” and foreign clients, which was the clarification that came in later, is restrictive. That combined with Indian lawyers employed at those firms having to give up their Indian qualifications, will further dent aspirations. Unlike the situation two decades ago, there is now a fair amount of clarity as to what “practising Indian law” actually means. I think that will certainly be somewhat inhibiting.

I know firms might potentially push the envelope on that, but it’s a risky proposition given that there is regulatory oversight. The Bar Council has come up with Rules; they have set what you can and cannot do; and the ‘cannot-do’ bucket is a slightly difficult one to fall into.

I’m sure there will be a number of very niche firms that have particular kinds of needs to have an office here and are able to focus on foreign law for foreign clients, but I’d wait and watch.

PS: On the topic of foreign law firms, TT&A has had a long-standing relationship with Linklaters. Does that relationship still continue today?

KT: No, it doesn't. As you said, we had the best-friend relationship that was pretty much there from TT&A’s inception back in 2007. It was a close relationship. We worked exclusively as much as we possibly could; there was sharing of know-how, joint meetings…and it was fantastic.

But the market’s needs and one’s own needs change over time and that model was no longer sustainable for either of us. So there is no longer any formal or informal “relationship” or “arrangement” between the firms.

There was no formal announcement of the breakup, simply because there was no formal announcement when the relationship commenced. The COVID-19 pandemic was also a bit of a dampener in terms of getting that message across.

We still, however, continue to do a lot of work with Linklaters, but Linklaters works extensively with a lot of Indian law firms, and we work extensively with a lot of foreign law firms as well.

PS: Do you see TT&A forming any relationships with any of the international firms?

KT: Not immediately. The Indian legal market has developed in the last 20+ years, it’s deeper, more mature, with broader expertise and better substantial relationships with both domestic and international clients. So the Indian market may well mirror a number of other mature legal markets like Australia, South Africa, China and South Korea, where international firms do not have any substantial presence.

GS: In terms of our choice, we value the size, we value the culture and we value the common vision that all of us currently have. There is no real drive to become part of a large network. Of course, 10 years down the line, if the contours of the market completely change, we’ll see at that point. In terms of our assessment of how the market is going to change in the next few years, I personally don’t feel there will be radical change.

Having spoken to a lot of clients as well, I don’t see a major shift by domestic clients. A very large proportion of active international clients now have had a base in India for a long time. They have, over a period of time, formed excellent relationships based on mutual trust with Indian lawyers. They are sophisticated. They won’t feel, “There’s an international brand that has opened up and now we need to go there.”  They are very clear on what they want and even today if they feel that there is a transaction where an international firm is required, they tend to do that already. 

So, I don’t see 20-25 international firms suddenly coming into India and opening big offices.

PS: In terms of expansion plans, where do you see TT&A in the next 3-5 years?

KT: We don’t have any plans of being X size or having X people in four to five years. Yes, there’s always expansion, because that’s part of how you operate. But any expansion will be on the back of our philosophy - people who are able to deliver on the same basis so that we have the same client reputation and market reputation - and not for the sake of just expansion.

GS: There is also no immediate plan in terms of offices…but having said that, we would be looking to do something in Bangalore for sure. A few of our lawyers are already in Bangalore for personal reasons. So there is already, in a sense, a presence there, but it’s not an office yet. Given that Bangalore is an important market and a lot of our clients are based there, it would be the next logical move for us. Hopefully, we should be able to manage that soon.

In terms of other expansion, there are some practice areas which are clearly so complementary to the work we already do that we just can’t ignore it. An Infrastructure or Projects practice is something we feel is critical to us. We should be making an announcement on that very shortly.

Litigation practice is another one. Existing clients, fortunately or unfortunately, keep running into issues where they need litigation support. Given the comfort they have with us, they would obviously prefer it if we can provide it to them. So far, we’ve managed it even if it’s not with an in-house senior litigator, but we kind of work with some specialist chambers, whether it’s arbitration or criminal law or other areas, where we’re involved deeply in the matter but we have someone else do the court work or filing work. That’s worked out well for clients, they’ve actually been quite happy. We have managed to pick the best person for each of the areas rather than having just one team deal with all of that.

But we do recognize that we need to have a proper Disputes practice. That’s also a work in progress. We just want to make sure that we get the right person, not just in terms of quality of work, but also in terms of cultural fit.

PS: What are the top three trends that we will see in the legal market in the next three years?

GS: From a law firm perspective, for me, the key challenge is going to be retaining people. When I say retaining people, it’s no longer the mid-level, which has been the challenge over the last 10 years or so. Now it’s at a slightly more senior level where someone who’s aged 30-33 just made Partner, and they are looking at what it is that they want to do for the next 20 years or so. They want to make sure that they are in a place which allows them the full freedom to develop, as well as one that has a fair system which allows them to achieve that potential, where there is no glass ceiling or any other such criteria.

The transitions, changes and upheavals which have happened in the law firm sector in the last 4-5 years have largely been around these issues: aspirations of people and whether they feel if this is a right place to meet that aspiration. That is going to be a challenge for firms of all sizes. That’s why it’s important to build a system which gives the people the confidence that this is a fair system which applies to everyone, one that is not arbitrary, and one which they have a say in.

Speaking for myself and my team, coming from a firm which had 140 Partners to a much smaller firm, there is a lot more involvement, a lot more participation by the Partners who came along. It has been quite exciting for them in ways which they hadn’t even expected or bargained for. Just that feeling of ownership, sense of participation, sense of being involved in the decision-making, that itself is a kick. You tend to underestimate this as you focus too much on client servicing, because after a point, while being an integral part, client servicing can’t be the be-all and end-all.

KT: To link to that, managing attrition as well, because we often end up in situations where the high achievers end up where they have to end up, whether it’s within the firm or elsewhere. How you manage and support people throughout their careers, so that they are doing right by themselves and right by your firm, will also be increasingly important.

GS: The other upcoming trend I see is clients being more and more value-driven. Most clients don’t like changing counsel or working with 20 different law firms and trying to get the cheapest fee arrangement. They value long-term relationships. They value the fact that when they are working with an advisor for a period of time, there is a more holistic understanding of their issues, availability and familiarity with what the client requires. They want us to be more and more receptive to how their business is evolving, how their internal teams are evolving and they want us to be solution-based. That is going to be a major shift and even established brands, no matter the size, will need to continue to evolve to make sure that the client feels they are getting good value for their time, effort and resources they are spending on the relationship.

Value will drive clients’ choices, not price.

KT: At the other end of that will be a firm’s focus to deepen its relationships with major clients and broadening its offering to them, rather than having a long tail of clients.