Pramod Dubey is a leading criminal lawyer based out of Delhi. While he has practiced in all three fora (Supreme Court, High Court and trial courts), the trial courts of Delhi remain his favourite hunting ground..Pramod Dubey sits down for a chat with Bar & Bench‘s Smrithi Suresh over the recent pecuniary jurisdiction amendments, his experience in high profile cases, and more..The Journey Begins.After visiting Delhi for the first time in 1991 for his father’s treatment, the electronic engineering graduate from Bihar University decided to give the Civil Services Exam a shot. He had no inkling about what fate had in store for him..“One day, my roommates were discussing about fundamental rights, a discussion which went beyond me, but also had me curious about the concept. I bought my first copy of the Constitution of India to study more about rights. Understanding the preamble took more than a month!.Gradually, the interest towards legal studies kept growing and eventually I sat for the entrance to Campus Law Centre, Delhi University. Believe it or not, my motivation to study at DU was that I’ll get the DTC bus pass for 13 rupees; with my annual fees at 900 rupees, I thought this was a sweet deal!” (laughs).One would assume that after he found his calling, things would eventually fall into place. But that was not to be, as immediately upon graduating, Pramod Dubey had serious doubts about the future path..“Someone told me that I should start my practice in Delhi so I began my search for seniors. I narrowed my search to a few lawyers but they were evasive and non-responsive. So I decided to start my practice from Patna. With my bags packed for home, I was ready to leave for Patna and try my luck there.”.Life, of course, had other plans..“Before I was set to leave, my brother took me to Prof BB Pandey, who promised to get me a job with a good senior. Not only that, he was willing to pay for my expenses. He was always of the opinion that Delhi being Delhi, nobody could predict what the stars had in store! Ultimately, he provided me with a recommendation letter for a lawyer, who in turn referred me to Sidharth Luthra. .When I reached Luthra’s office, this gentleman met me and said that Sidharth wasn’t in town. He began asking me about my references, background etc. He didn’t believe me when I said I was recommended by Prof Pandey. My spirits sank because I was in desperate need of the job. After a rigorous interview and being told to research in AIR, prepping annexures etc. this man said that he was Sidharth Luthra himself. Imagine my surprise!.His father, Mr. KK Luthra instructed Sidharth to keep me in his chamber. I was over the moon. For my first job, my salary was 1500 rupees out of which my room rent was 1000 bucks. Even Sidharth had just entered the fray and his practice was three years old so he understood my struggles as a junior lawyer. He promised me back then, ‘Pramod, do not worry. When I become a big man, I’ll take care of you suitably well.’”.Association with the Luthras.Pramod Dubey regards KK Luthra as his first mentor and does not hesitate in acknowledging his contribution to his own professional growth..“I was always in awe of KK Luthra. He was a thorough and disciplined senior while being a result oriented lawyer; he was exceptional when it came to trial. I never found a better criminal lawyer than him in my life. I learnt a lot about drafting, research, preparing of evidence from him.”.After senior Luthra’s demise in 1997, Pramod Dubey would go on to work for his son Sidharth, by taking care of the litigation at Tis Hazari..“Even today, I see Sidharth as a guide and a mentor. In 2007, he told me to go and decide on an office place in the upmarket Defence Colony. I was taken aback as I was only drawing a salary of 20,000 rupees at that time. I started looking and ultimately zeroed down an office space. .I took him to visit the place and he also really liked it. He told me to go ahead and set it up to which I responded saying that I did not have the money to setup a chamber. He said, “I am there for you. I will pay for everything. I am also giving you one junior and a clerk, whose salary for 2 years am taking care of..Every day he used to take office updates from me, as to how I dealt with the client, etc. Even now, he doesn’t hesitate in reprimanding me during briefings if he feels that the preparation is lacking. The association is special as it is valuable to me. He is always striving to make me a better lawyer.” .The (in)famous trial court strikes.I ask him about the frequent occurrence of strikes in the lower courts and whether the system needs an overhaul. He replies in the negative..“It is you who is running the system and self-amendment is what the need of the hour is. So before blaming the entire community, we need to remember that educating lawyers against such forceful means is necessary. Try to build their confidence to show them that striking is not the solution and one cannot punish the public like this. .If there is a strike, it is the duty of the bench to call the members of the Bar and ask them about their grievances, give them an opportunity to voice their issues against the system and work out a mutually agreeable solution to the problem which does not inconvenience the litigant. .Also, when I started with my practice, we used to witness strikes every other day. Now the frequency has definitely come down and the instances are far and few in between, which is also a good sign.”.Pecuniary Amendments and Pendency.The conversation veers towards the recent amendments which have been much talked about. The Delhi High Court Bar Association was up in arms against the en masse transfer of cases to the District Courts. Pramod Dubey has an interesting view to offer on this..“Earlier when the pecuniary jurisdiction was limited to 20 lakhs, you would see High Court judges hearing disputes on two bedroom houses! These judges are holding constitutional posts and their job is to define the constitution, not adjudicate civil disputes of this nature. We have six judges on the original side and if they are freed (due to the transfer of cases), we can have more Division Benches to tackle the high backlog of civil and criminal cases.”.“If you ask me, let the Pecuniary Original Jurisdiction go away completely from High Court to lower courts. Let the High Court remain solely an appellate court.”.Additionally, he feels that this move would only be a step forward in reducing the judicial pendency plaguing our courts. However, reducing litigation, according to him is not a viable option..“Presently in the High Court, we are arguing criminal appeals of 2014, 2015. So I do not find any pendency, at least in these category of cases. We have efficient and punctual judges who are disposing matters everyday. We also need to be realistic. You cannot check pendency. Everyone is raising a hue and cry about pendency but can you stop litigants from filing cases? .All we can do is to increase the infrastructure; bring in more courts, hire more people to man these courts, train judges to curb delays and avoid adjournments, plan the rosters in a way that it does not burden the judge. Government has to think on these lines before any discussion on judicial pendency can begin.”.Trial by (media) fire?.Having appeared in the Navy war room leak case, Hawala matters, Gopal Kanda case and many others, Pramod Dubey knows a thing or two about the increasing concept of media trials. How does he shield himself from the negative perceptions among the public that often tend to be fanned vigorously by the press while covering high profile matters?.“From the beginning I have been exposed to media reports and it’s nothing new to me. Every other criminal case is being tried by the media, be it the Hawala matters, Gopal Kanda, Jessica Lal etc. This never diverts us from our work. Being a lawyer, we do not have the business to find out as to what is wrong and what is right with the case..My job is to do justice to my brief and not go beyond it. You are not in court to get an acquittal or conviction for your client. You are there to assist the Bench to see the case from a wider perspective, as per the law.”.This gets him talking about a case which he holds close to his heart. A rape case, where the victim was a lawyer, saw Pramod Dubey get on the wrong side of the feminist activists..“It was a hotly contested case by all female organizations and I was being abused everyday on how I was being insensitive to the victim. Whenever I used to question the victim, she used to start crying. But I had to justify my brief also. Therefore, it was tough to balance both these aspects. .During one hearing, a sitting judge of the Delhi High Court was present in the gallery of the court where trial was going on. He had come for an inspection of the proceeding and my manner of cross-examining the victim. I had no idea until later when someone informed me about this. I came to know that not a single adverse remark was made by the judge on the way the trial progressed!”.Parting thoughts.As I wrap up my interview, I ask him whether he harbours any regrets on not opting for the Civil Services. He believes that given a choice, he would never chart his journey in a different way..“We face challenges everyday in this profession. I get a chance to serve the society through my pro-bono cases. The profession also lets you be your own boss, which is a creative freedom that I enjoy most. You get to learn something everyday; be it from your juniors, your clients or the Bench..I studied in a small school in West Champaran, Bihar. We used to study while sitting under the tree. From there to here, God has been kind!”.Indeed, a journey that is humbling as it is inspiring.
Pramod Dubey is a leading criminal lawyer based out of Delhi. While he has practiced in all three fora (Supreme Court, High Court and trial courts), the trial courts of Delhi remain his favourite hunting ground..Pramod Dubey sits down for a chat with Bar & Bench‘s Smrithi Suresh over the recent pecuniary jurisdiction amendments, his experience in high profile cases, and more..The Journey Begins.After visiting Delhi for the first time in 1991 for his father’s treatment, the electronic engineering graduate from Bihar University decided to give the Civil Services Exam a shot. He had no inkling about what fate had in store for him..“One day, my roommates were discussing about fundamental rights, a discussion which went beyond me, but also had me curious about the concept. I bought my first copy of the Constitution of India to study more about rights. Understanding the preamble took more than a month!.Gradually, the interest towards legal studies kept growing and eventually I sat for the entrance to Campus Law Centre, Delhi University. Believe it or not, my motivation to study at DU was that I’ll get the DTC bus pass for 13 rupees; with my annual fees at 900 rupees, I thought this was a sweet deal!” (laughs).One would assume that after he found his calling, things would eventually fall into place. But that was not to be, as immediately upon graduating, Pramod Dubey had serious doubts about the future path..“Someone told me that I should start my practice in Delhi so I began my search for seniors. I narrowed my search to a few lawyers but they were evasive and non-responsive. So I decided to start my practice from Patna. With my bags packed for home, I was ready to leave for Patna and try my luck there.”.Life, of course, had other plans..“Before I was set to leave, my brother took me to Prof BB Pandey, who promised to get me a job with a good senior. Not only that, he was willing to pay for my expenses. He was always of the opinion that Delhi being Delhi, nobody could predict what the stars had in store! Ultimately, he provided me with a recommendation letter for a lawyer, who in turn referred me to Sidharth Luthra. .When I reached Luthra’s office, this gentleman met me and said that Sidharth wasn’t in town. He began asking me about my references, background etc. He didn’t believe me when I said I was recommended by Prof Pandey. My spirits sank because I was in desperate need of the job. After a rigorous interview and being told to research in AIR, prepping annexures etc. this man said that he was Sidharth Luthra himself. Imagine my surprise!.His father, Mr. KK Luthra instructed Sidharth to keep me in his chamber. I was over the moon. For my first job, my salary was 1500 rupees out of which my room rent was 1000 bucks. Even Sidharth had just entered the fray and his practice was three years old so he understood my struggles as a junior lawyer. He promised me back then, ‘Pramod, do not worry. When I become a big man, I’ll take care of you suitably well.’”.Association with the Luthras.Pramod Dubey regards KK Luthra as his first mentor and does not hesitate in acknowledging his contribution to his own professional growth..“I was always in awe of KK Luthra. He was a thorough and disciplined senior while being a result oriented lawyer; he was exceptional when it came to trial. I never found a better criminal lawyer than him in my life. I learnt a lot about drafting, research, preparing of evidence from him.”.After senior Luthra’s demise in 1997, Pramod Dubey would go on to work for his son Sidharth, by taking care of the litigation at Tis Hazari..“Even today, I see Sidharth as a guide and a mentor. In 2007, he told me to go and decide on an office place in the upmarket Defence Colony. I was taken aback as I was only drawing a salary of 20,000 rupees at that time. I started looking and ultimately zeroed down an office space. .I took him to visit the place and he also really liked it. He told me to go ahead and set it up to which I responded saying that I did not have the money to setup a chamber. He said, “I am there for you. I will pay for everything. I am also giving you one junior and a clerk, whose salary for 2 years am taking care of..Every day he used to take office updates from me, as to how I dealt with the client, etc. Even now, he doesn’t hesitate in reprimanding me during briefings if he feels that the preparation is lacking. The association is special as it is valuable to me. He is always striving to make me a better lawyer.” .The (in)famous trial court strikes.I ask him about the frequent occurrence of strikes in the lower courts and whether the system needs an overhaul. He replies in the negative..“It is you who is running the system and self-amendment is what the need of the hour is. So before blaming the entire community, we need to remember that educating lawyers against such forceful means is necessary. Try to build their confidence to show them that striking is not the solution and one cannot punish the public like this. .If there is a strike, it is the duty of the bench to call the members of the Bar and ask them about their grievances, give them an opportunity to voice their issues against the system and work out a mutually agreeable solution to the problem which does not inconvenience the litigant. .Also, when I started with my practice, we used to witness strikes every other day. Now the frequency has definitely come down and the instances are far and few in between, which is also a good sign.”.Pecuniary Amendments and Pendency.The conversation veers towards the recent amendments which have been much talked about. The Delhi High Court Bar Association was up in arms against the en masse transfer of cases to the District Courts. Pramod Dubey has an interesting view to offer on this..“Earlier when the pecuniary jurisdiction was limited to 20 lakhs, you would see High Court judges hearing disputes on two bedroom houses! These judges are holding constitutional posts and their job is to define the constitution, not adjudicate civil disputes of this nature. We have six judges on the original side and if they are freed (due to the transfer of cases), we can have more Division Benches to tackle the high backlog of civil and criminal cases.”.“If you ask me, let the Pecuniary Original Jurisdiction go away completely from High Court to lower courts. Let the High Court remain solely an appellate court.”.Additionally, he feels that this move would only be a step forward in reducing the judicial pendency plaguing our courts. However, reducing litigation, according to him is not a viable option..“Presently in the High Court, we are arguing criminal appeals of 2014, 2015. So I do not find any pendency, at least in these category of cases. We have efficient and punctual judges who are disposing matters everyday. We also need to be realistic. You cannot check pendency. Everyone is raising a hue and cry about pendency but can you stop litigants from filing cases? .All we can do is to increase the infrastructure; bring in more courts, hire more people to man these courts, train judges to curb delays and avoid adjournments, plan the rosters in a way that it does not burden the judge. Government has to think on these lines before any discussion on judicial pendency can begin.”.Trial by (media) fire?.Having appeared in the Navy war room leak case, Hawala matters, Gopal Kanda case and many others, Pramod Dubey knows a thing or two about the increasing concept of media trials. How does he shield himself from the negative perceptions among the public that often tend to be fanned vigorously by the press while covering high profile matters?.“From the beginning I have been exposed to media reports and it’s nothing new to me. Every other criminal case is being tried by the media, be it the Hawala matters, Gopal Kanda, Jessica Lal etc. This never diverts us from our work. Being a lawyer, we do not have the business to find out as to what is wrong and what is right with the case..My job is to do justice to my brief and not go beyond it. You are not in court to get an acquittal or conviction for your client. You are there to assist the Bench to see the case from a wider perspective, as per the law.”.This gets him talking about a case which he holds close to his heart. A rape case, where the victim was a lawyer, saw Pramod Dubey get on the wrong side of the feminist activists..“It was a hotly contested case by all female organizations and I was being abused everyday on how I was being insensitive to the victim. Whenever I used to question the victim, she used to start crying. But I had to justify my brief also. Therefore, it was tough to balance both these aspects. .During one hearing, a sitting judge of the Delhi High Court was present in the gallery of the court where trial was going on. He had come for an inspection of the proceeding and my manner of cross-examining the victim. I had no idea until later when someone informed me about this. I came to know that not a single adverse remark was made by the judge on the way the trial progressed!”.Parting thoughts.As I wrap up my interview, I ask him whether he harbours any regrets on not opting for the Civil Services. He believes that given a choice, he would never chart his journey in a different way..“We face challenges everyday in this profession. I get a chance to serve the society through my pro-bono cases. The profession also lets you be your own boss, which is a creative freedom that I enjoy most. You get to learn something everyday; be it from your juniors, your clients or the Bench..I studied in a small school in West Champaran, Bihar. We used to study while sitting under the tree. From there to here, God has been kind!”.Indeed, a journey that is humbling as it is inspiring.